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The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Concludi

• ori_b 11y ago
  > The fact that you are convinced that Germany acted in Greece's best interest is what sets us apart. Greece not failing to pay creditors is good for both Greece and Greek's creditors. I'm not sure why you feel that the two are mutually exclusive.
• paskster 11y ago
  I am very pro Euro. But I don't like the fact that a single country in Europe feels that 18 other countries have to pay their debt. These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. A lot of people make it seem that we (non-greece european) somewhat forced theses agreements onto greece. In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot of our money, we could have spent on infrastructure, education, etc. Therefore I would love Greece to give up the Euro currency and leave the European Union, so that these other 18 countries don't feel any obligation anymore to transfer more money to greece. I believe that Europe will be stronger that way. Because a vision of a truly united European Union can only be reached if all countries play by the same rules and abide to their agreements.
  • twobits 11y ago
    You are not paying for greece. You (and all european tax payers) are paying for Deutsche Bank. Private debts were made public. You should ask Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Schauble, why you should pay for debts that were private.
  • mb_72 11y ago
    Half-Australian and half-Estonian here; I can only agree with your sentiment. It seems to me that decades of corruption, tax avoidance and financial mismanagement is responsible for the position that Greece is in today, and I don't see why it is necessary for other countries to reward such behaviour with continued support and understanding. You don't like the terms of financial support offered by the EU? Well, maybe you should have thought about how your country has been run and realise that - sooner or later - that is going to cost you jobs and economic stability.
    • gutnor 11y ago
      How much research did you do into all the fiscal decisions of the country you live in ? Are you even qualified enough to interpret the result at all ?It seems to me you are asking from the average Joe Greek more than professional actually did. Also "Greece" is not a single entity. Making Greece pay does not mean making the people that created the debt pay - it means taking the available money and you should know that "available money" is generally not rich people money. So yes, you are right that you do not want to reward such behaviour. Letting the actual responsible get away with it and punish somebody else is not the way to do it though.
      • monk_e_boy 11y ago
        Agreed, the people who mismanaged and/or stole the money in previous years are GONE. Why punish the average Joe in Greece? What will it achieve?
        • empressplay 11y ago
          The point of democracy is that the people appoint representatives to act on their behalf -- as such, the public is indeed fully responsible for what their politicians do, like it or not, whether an individual voted for them or not. There is no abdication of responsibility in a democracy and the Greeks should know that better than anyone.
          • gutnor 11y ago
  • atmosx 11y ago
    > These bailouts in the past were signed from the greece government in the best interest of its people. What if a country destroys, literally, the entire continent killing around 80 million ppl, 70 years ago. What should we do with this country? Should show some solidarity and pardon it's debt or "abide to the rules" and ask them to pay their dues to all the countries they created damages?
    • kedean 11y ago
      War reparations are in no way related to repeatedly breaking the terms of bailouts.
      • atmosx 11y ago
        There's no way any country in the world could keep up with troika's bailout terms given the damage these terms did to the economy. The IMF already noted that the "plan" was wrong. Every single forecast was out by a huge margin, what exactly more do we need to die? Stop breathing? WHat Varoufakis says is that we don't want money under terms the country can't honor, and the troika asks repeadetly for him to be removed. Maybe someone like Stournaras who signs any paper without asking questions would be more fit.
        • htns 11y ago
          The funny thing is that now we will see whether that was true.
    • jwdunne 11y ago
      I haven't down voted you because this has been on the tip of my tongue but I've held it back because it's such a low-ball response which achieves nothing. I think this whole "look at X" is why we're in this chaos. We can point fingers this way ad infinitum but it's only served to keep the EU in stalemate over this issue.
      • atmosx 11y ago
        You're free to down-vote me, I don't care :-) I can assure no hard feelings about it... I had expressed many unpopular opinions on HN and had been downvoted many times, never held me back from expressing my views. What I'm saying is that solidarity towards Germany was key in 1945. Now it's time to make a Marshall plan for Greece that will bring 'justice' to the country, fix our tax-system, etc. Every Greek would welcome that sort of change even it came from abroad. The troika didn't do that at any point. It just sucked money from Greek tax-payers.
  • calibraxis 11y ago
    Greece among others pardoned your Nazi debts and reparations in 1953, helping you rise. Greeks did nothing so terrible to "owe a debt". You owe them a debt which is far stronger than promises ("debt") held by investors, part of which was from the dictatorship and therefore odious debt. Piketty: "When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.(https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-ha...)
    • ssalazar 11y ago
      Pffff ridiculous. Can we starting calling this the Godwin's Law of economics? Economic policy intended to rebuild an entire continent after the most traumatic conflict in its history is necessarily going to differ from policy during times of peace.
      • twobits 11y ago
        So your solution is for greece to start WW3?
        • ssalazar 11y ago
          Ha. Is that a joke?
          • corin_ 11y ago
            Not him but if I were my answer would be: not just a joke but a rather clever comment about the logic behind the idea that Greece would be more deserving of debt-forgiveness if they started a war on top of the current situation.
    • TheMagicHorsey 11y ago
      Greece must stop spending 50% of its GDP on bloated government bureaucracies. That is the bottom line. More money stops them from taking the hard steps. Greeks make nearly nothing that anybody wants, but they want the goods everyone else makes. They are not adjusting themselves to the realities of the modern world. You want cell phones, computers, cars, shoes, t-shirts, refrigerators ... all these things ... but you want to not actually make anything ... just sit at desks in secure government jobs doing nothing productive. This has to stop. But politically there is no will to stop it, because people there don't seem to understand that secure, easy jobs for life, where you don't make things, don't actually create wealth for the country. They think jobs are some thing where you just show up in the morning for work, do some paper shuffling and go home at night. And get your secure paycheck from government. How do we change this attitude? The same attitude is in India's public sector too. The way is you have to cut off the money faucet for the government. If the issue is poverty in Greece ... then let Europe provide basic needs for the Greek citizens as they reorganize the country. But feeding the Greek bureaucracy really shouldn't be done. Also continuing to perpetuate this attitude towards what employment is and what jobs are should also not be done.
  • tptacek 11y ago
    I wonder what the EU expected. How is this morally different from the fact that most of the other 49 US states pay for the debts of Mississippi? If we hadn't been doing it on a long-term continual basis, and MS ran its own economy, we'd be talking about "bailing them out". But life support to MS is the long-term normal in the US economy.
    • bodyfour 11y ago
      The main difference is that much of the US taxes are collected at the federal level with compliance enforced by a federal agency. European taxpayers aren't going to be willing to permanently transfer money to a country if they feel some of the government's problems are caused by widespread tax evasion.
    • makeitsuckless 11y ago
      Does the term "sovereign nation" mean anything to you? Do you feel an obligation to pay for the debts of Greece? No? Then why would a German, or me as a Dutchman feel such an obligation?
      • tptacek 11y ago
        No, but then my country is not part of a decades-long effort to unify the continent it resides on under a single financial and regulatory regime; we finished doing that roughly 150 years ago. As a result, we don't have to "bail out" Mississippi so much as continually pay for its mismanagement. And so, again, isn't "paying for mismanagement" part of what you sign up for when you try to unify Europe?
        • michaelt 11y ago
          European politics is funny - EU treaties talk about "ever closer union" and the Euro was deliberately designed with no exit mechanisms; but at the same time politicians never talk about forming a "united states of europe" as it's deeply unpopular with voters. In other words, if you ask whether the EU aims for a single financial and regulatory regime the answer is "yes and no"
  • elorant 11y ago
    So you have no problem with ECB spending at least one trillion to buy national bonds (including yours) but you do have a problem with writing off a portion of the Greek debt. And why exactly is that?
  • vidarh 11y ago
    > In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot of our money, we could have spent on infrastructure, education, etc. You should have. It would have been better for Greece if the former Greek government had not been strongarmed into being the fall-guy for a rescue programme for French and German banks.
  • base 11y ago
    "In fact these bailouts where were unpopular in Germany, because it cost us a lot of our money, we could have spent on infrastructure, education, etc." The money was provided as a loan, was not given for free, you even get a return on investment so that kind of comments are made by populist politicians and don't make any sense. https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-has-never-repaid-7b5e7add6fff https://medium.com/@gavinschalliol/thomas-piketty-germany-ha...
  • galfarragem 11y ago
    I'm Portuguese but I completely agree with you. Greeks have chosen their path. Farewell Greece.
    • pjmlp 11y ago
      Just wait until they come to us next. I bet we would have voted the same if given the opportunity.
    • olifante 11y ago
      I'm Portuguese and I completely disapprove this message. We are deluding ourselves if we think that our situation is qualitatively much different from the Greek one. Were it not for Greece, Portugal would be the scapegoat for the Euro crisis. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I see that no one from the financial sector went to jail for recklessly causing the biggest worldwide financial crisis since 1929, yet everybody is happily demonizing the Greeks, who in spite of having a made several errors were in no way responsible for the global crisis. This shows how much journalism has been captured by financial interests, working hard to deflect attention from the true perpetrators.
  • codexjourneys 11y ago
    The problem is that you aren't considering second-order effects. Is it better for Greece to give up the euro and return to the drachma? Quite possibly. Iceland successfully rebooted its economy after the financial crisis (with a lot of pain involved) because it was not tied to the euro. Of course, that required a huge amount of willpower and effort (which Greece has not shown yet). Is it better for the EU and the rest of the world for Greece to give up the euro and return to the drachma? Probably not. Why? Because it sets a precedent for giving up the euro and/or leaving the EU. Greece is a relatively small country, and the upheaval resulting from its financial recalibration could be fairly manageable. If Spain or Italy tries to go down the same road, it is a different story. Take a look: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-15748696 http://www.bbc.com/news/business-15748696 Italy owes France a LOT of money. France owes the UK a lot of money. The UK owes the US and Germany a lot of money. Greece, as you can see, is a drop in the bucket. It's the precedent that's important.
  • MaysonL 11y ago
    Remember Germany's history of debt forgiveness and non-forgiveness. Don't know about it? Look at the treaty of Versailles, and John Maynard Keynes's polemic against it. Also look at the Marshall plan, and the debt forgiveness of 1953. And then consider how you want Greece to be treated. And consider how Portugal, Spain, Italy, France, and Germany should be treated when they run to big a deficit. Also read this post (unless you are extremely annoyed by vulgar language): http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5965.html http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/5965.html
• return0 11y ago
  A grexit will strengthen the euro substantially. The key economy is Italy , which is doing pretty stable. After grexit, Greece doesnt stand to win much, in particular its entrepreneurial class will just leave the country. This kind of schadenfreude against EU/EZ/Germany is very common in greece this week. In a few months, nobody will want to admit they voted for "no".
  • gurkendoktor 11y ago
    A strengthened Euro would wreck our (Germany's) export-based economy. I'm sure we'll find a way around that.
• wongarsu 11y ago
  Of course Germany didn't do this because they love charity. But it is meant to be mutually beneficial: German banks get their money, Greece can stay in the Euro and can get further loans. It's not great for Greece, but the alternatives aren't much better.
  • atmosx 11y ago
    Well, newsflass: TO me the average Greek tax-payer it wasn't benificial at all. It was to you apparently.
• derriz 11y ago
  The facts do not support your claim. In the four years before 2015, the Greek government got to spend in excess of 80 billion euros of money lent to it from other european countries. In addition the Greek banks were allowed to use almost 100 billion of "credit" from the ECB. I feel really sorry for the Greeks now - they are about to learn what it's like living without this support.
• dataker 11y ago
  Did Germany's political class benefit from this? Maybe. Still, Greece allowed it to happen by not facing reality.
• makeitsuckless 11y ago
  You're not starving yet. You wouldn't be starving if Greece had accepted the deal. You may however start to feel very hungry soon holding a pile of worthless Drachma...
• NotableAlamode 11y ago
  Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. And if we send bread to feed the poor, you'd book that under "your money went mainly to your bakeries". It's just dishonest. Moreover, it's even factually false that the majority of the bailout money was used for bailing out banks. Only 1/3 of the credits were used for this purpose. The rest fuelled consumption in Greece, and/or was off-shored by the greek elites. your Banks You are following Syriza's xenophobia ... always blame the germans. French banks were the biggest private debtors.
  • rihegher 11y ago
    It's a long serie of mistakes that led us there. Maybe european leader should have stop postponing the crash and let greece default on all its debt to private creditor and let the impacted banks to go bankrupt like Credit Agricole for instance. But because in every major banks in europe, commercial banking and investment banking are not seperate activities, along with the banks bankruptcy a lot of people would have lost a lot of money. So French and German politicians did not want this to happen. Greece was not alone to have financial problems, Ireland, Spain and Portugal had some as well but after a long austerity cure they are now stable. But austerity just didn't work as expected in Greece.
    • exceptione 11y ago
      It should be noted that Greece's economy was climbing again, but since Syriza got in power it all went downhill and al the growth has been destroyed. I'm not an economist, but to me it seems like the patient ran away during the operation.
  • honest_joe 11y ago
    Germany and Austria should not have existed after WW2. They pretty much annexed economically Ostbloc via EU.
• minot 11y ago
  > Concluding, I'd rather go back to the Drachma and blow the Euro project than die starving becuase it suits your country's political class. Serious question: Why do you think switching currency to Drachma will solve anything? From what I've heard and read, Greece can't spend its way out of this problem because it lacks trust among creditors.
  • jessaustin 11y ago
    They won't follow Capt. Germany's (self-serving) rules, so they'll be kicked off the euro boat. Right now some might imagine that life will go on as before, but the simple physics of buoyancy will mean they'll have to start swimming eventually. But... there's nothing wrong with swimming! Sure, the drachma will plummet against the euro, dollar, etc. So no one will be able to afford an iPhone. But their factories, farmers, and fisherman will be ideally placed to produce for and export to the rest of Europe, because they'll be selling cheap. They'll issue bonds denominated in drachma, and sure those will have to yield more than euro-denominated bonds in the short term, but that won't last forever. When entitlements are denominated in drachma as well, they don't have to borrow anything to pay for them. (If they issue bonds for the purpose rather than just printing money, that's more honest but it doesn't change anything.) Entitlement ppp value just naturally drops and rises with that of their national currency. So, it will hurt at first, but after exporters start ramping up it will get better. Greece doesn't need the euro, the euro doesn't need Greece, and the Grexit won't turn Greece into the Congo.
    • return0 11y ago
      This is going to take a looong time because greece is heavily de-industrialized, (e.g. imports ~80% of meat). But i agree it's inevitable.
    • izacus 11y ago
      The problem is that Greece imports about 50% of their food (and several other goods), so the consequences of drachma are going to go way above expensive iPhones - the food prices will surge, hurting the poorest the most.
• JumpCrisscross 11y ago
  > Your money went mainly to your Banks, via Greece. Suppose you have a €500 credit card bill. That bill represents euros you have spent (plus interest). If I pay that bill for you it frees €500, which would have previously serviced debt, for other things. It would be disingenuous to say "I gave the money to the bank, so it only helped them and not you." French and German banks did get bailed out of their bad credit decisions. But Greece gained substantially from its borrowings in the short-run. > blow the Euro The financial markets are not convinced that a Grexit would harm Europe significantly [1]. In the long-run, the union may actually be strengthened. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/deutsche-bank-greece-contagion-and-limited-eu-impact-2015-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/deutsche-bank-greece-contagio...
  • sooheon 11y ago
    But you did not pay it for me for charity, you still want me to pay it back, just to you, not the bank, no?
    • JonoW 11y ago
      At a better interest rate, with a haircut to the original debt and saving you from defaulting on that original debt (by delaying payment deadlines). So yes, there is a benefit to you
• SneakerXZ 11y ago
  If you think Greece will do better without EU you are wrong. You will end up as Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria or Romania (last two will do probably better) so I don't think you will like it. Also your credibility will be destroyed because if you decided not you pay your depts nobody will borrow you any money in next years. You have problems with collecting taxes, you overspend money on public sector and social system and you have other problems too. Your country doesn't have strategic position so I don't see a reason why would anyone move manufacturing to Greece instead of Poland or Romania or similar countries where it is much cheaper. You were quite lucky you were only non-communist country in that region 30 years ago and you joined EU. EU for last 30 years was sending you approximately 6 billions EUR every year. At least you are popular tourist destination. Good luck, I wouldn't want to be a Greek. PS: I am not a German.
  • elorant 11y ago
    Your country doesn't have strategic position From all the arguments I’ve read this is the most hilarious. Dude, have you opened a map lately? Half of Middle East is in flames including parts of northern Africa. And we have no strategic position? Greece is what stands between Europe and legions of refugees from Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention the fuckers from ISIS who want to infiltrate Europe. Thank God we’re in NATO otherwise we could allow Russia to build a naval base in Greece and watch EU and US go ballistic.
    • SneakerXZ 11y ago
      I though strategic position for business. Of course, you have strategic position for war but it will not bring you any money if NATO moves forces to your country to protect Europe against Middle East and North Africa. It also funny you mention you are what stand between immigrants and Europe but I guess you forgot to mention you don't protect your borders anymore because you cannot afford it anymore so thousands of immigrants through your country is flooding Europe.
      • twobits 11y ago
        About immigration, you should read about the "Dublin 2" treaty, and be amazed at the EU's hypocrisy.
• rimantas 11y ago
  And why money went to the banks? To pay the interests to the banks. Where did the initial loans go? Who knows. The fact is, Government of Greece got the initial loans, wasted them, got some more, and then had to get more loans just to be able to pay interests on the initial ones.