4 ms·

The energy situation now is: - A legal requirement to cut CO2 emissions - A ban on building new nuclear plants as well as a commitment to close the remaining

The energy situation now is: - A legal requirement to cut CO2 emissions - A ban on building new nuclear plants as well as a commitment to close the remaining one - A moratorium on building windmills because they scare birds and pollute the horizon - The largest supply of natural gas in Western Europe, but an increasing limit on exploiting this because shifts in ground level are causing cracks in people's walls. - A ban on fracking - There so notoriously little sunshine that people refuse to take solar power seriously, even though it seems to be working just fine in Germany. Different groups want opposing things. The energy situation would be fine if environmentalists would allow the construction of more windmills and nuclear plants, or if the CO2 reduction target was dropped. You can't have it both ways. The people in Groningen would probably be fine with continued exploitation of the gas wells if the profits were spent there, but the money is needed by the national government to meet the EU's budget deficit requirements. Now much of it will remain in the ground while we buy Russian gas. In my opinion the very concept that a horizon is something that can be polluted is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I think the Dutch landscape is featureless and boring, and windmills are a vast improvement. They look modern, industrious, cheerful.

pgeorgi 11y ago
> I think the Dutch landscape is featureless and boring, windmills are a vast improvement. They look modern, industrious, cheerful. I recently visited relatives in a German village where in the last few years a bunch of windmills where built. We went for a walk outside the village, and I heard a surprised "oh, those windmills are much smaller than I remember them to be". Turns out they looked imposing and scary in the beginning because they're of such a different scale than anything else in the area, but they got used to them quickly. Like the Netherlands it's a relatively flat area, so I guess the effects will be similar (windmills looking huge at first, then perceptually shrinking).
- wobbleblob 11y ago
  They are gigantic, they necessarily tower over everything (otherwise they wouldn't work), but once you take your gaze off the gigantic gray rotating blades against the clouds, and direct your eyes further down, you see [1] or [2]. Then you gaze back up again and think the windmill looks grand and beautiful in comparison. [1] https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_2014-1-842411-2_kletsnatte-akker-in-polder.jpeg https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_... [2] https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_2012-11-762840-2_moderne-woningbouw.jpeg https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_...
  - pgeorgi 11y ago
    They're large, of course. It's simply a matter of visual expectations: There's this flat land, with tiny houses, some forests surround it. Everything is laid out horizontally more than vertically. Then these vertical spikes appear. In such an environment windmills can seem frightening at first and feel like they're at least(!) 500 meters high since there's no frame of reference to them in the vertical. At some point they're simply large (still larger than everything else, but church towers, the former larger-than-everything structures, aren't frightening either - because people are used to them).
    - wobbleblob 11y ago
      Are you referring to Northern Germany? It has been a long time since the Netherlands looked like that. It's flat, but the endless "vinex wijken" of identical tiny "rijtjeshuizen" are everywhere. Instead of forests, there are geometric rows of identical Populus × canadensis clones. At the very least I think the windmills fit right in, in many cases I find it makes the landscape look nicer, with an added vertical element and some movement. Vastly nicer looking than a coal plant.
- daemonfire300 11y ago
  I dont know where you went in Germany, but there are lots of areas where windmills actually cluster up the horizon.
amelius 11y ago
> In my opinion the very concept that a horizon is something that can be polluted is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Well, sometimes it can be wonderful to be in a place without any sign of civilization, except perhaps the road you're walking on. But, I think they could easily put windmills in places which are already polluted on way or another. As another solution, they could build those windmills in 19th-century style :)
- mdemare 11y ago
  > Well, sometimes it can be wonderful to be in a place without any sign of civilization, except perhaps the road you're walking on. Agree, but in Holland, that ship has sailed.
  - amelius 11y ago
    I guess the coast line (dunes, sea) is an exception. So they better not put those windmills there :)
    - wobbleblob 11y ago
      The dunes as they are today are very much man made actually. The natural dunes are low and constantly shifting inland. People were tired of sand blowing over their fields and villages, and started planting trees and marram grass on them to fix them in place. The dunes have grown very tall in some places as a result, some over 50 meters above sea level, by far the highest natural features in the coastal provinces. The coastline of Zeeland is very artificial of course, much of it is reclaimed land. In the north of course there is the sea dike of Camperduin and reclaimed land, and Wieringen is no longer an island. The Waddenzee is quite unnatural. The closing of the Zuiderzee has changed the water chemistry such that seagrass will not grow there any more, and the islands have all been fixed in place, while they would naturally migrate east. I mock Staatsbosbeheer in their constant effort, working hard to keep the landscape from evolving and to keep it in its 'natural' state. The natural state would be a low lying brackish wetland that's regularly flooded by the sea, and the natural state would be constantly evolving.
- 11y ago

pgeorgi 11y ago

> I think the Dutch landscape is featureless and boring, windmills are a vast improvement. They look modern, industrious, cheerful. I recently visited relatives in a German village where in the last few years a bunch of windmills where built. We went for a walk outside the village, and I heard a surprised "oh, those windmills are much smaller than I remember them to be". Turns out they looked imposing and scary in the beginning because they're of such a different scale than anything else in the area, but they got used to them quickly. Like the Netherlands it's a relatively flat area, so I guess the effects will be similar (windmills looking huge at first, then perceptually shrinking).

wobbleblob 11y ago
They are gigantic, they necessarily tower over everything (otherwise they wouldn't work), but once you take your gaze off the gigantic gray rotating blades against the clouds, and direct your eyes further down, you see [1] or [2]. Then you gaze back up again and think the windmill looks grand and beautiful in comparison. [1] https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_2014-1-842411-2_kletsnatte-akker-in-polder.jpeg https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_... [2] https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_2012-11-762840-2_moderne-woningbouw.jpeg https://stock-foto.nationalebeeldbank.nl/nationalebeeldbank_...
- pgeorgi 11y ago
  They're large, of course. It's simply a matter of visual expectations: There's this flat land, with tiny houses, some forests surround it. Everything is laid out horizontally more than vertically. Then these vertical spikes appear. In such an environment windmills can seem frightening at first and feel like they're at least(!) 500 meters high since there's no frame of reference to them in the vertical. At some point they're simply large (still larger than everything else, but church towers, the former larger-than-everything structures, aren't frightening either - because people are used to them).
  - wobbleblob 11y ago
    Are you referring to Northern Germany? It has been a long time since the Netherlands looked like that. It's flat, but the endless "vinex wijken" of identical tiny "rijtjeshuizen" are everywhere. Instead of forests, there are geometric rows of identical Populus × canadensis clones. At the very least I think the windmills fit right in, in many cases I find it makes the landscape look nicer, with an added vertical element and some movement. Vastly nicer looking than a coal plant.
daemonfire300 11y ago
I dont know where you went in Germany, but there are lots of areas where windmills actually cluster up the horizon.

amelius 11y ago

> In my opinion the very concept that a horizon is something that can be polluted is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Well, sometimes it can be wonderful to be in a place without any sign of civilization, except perhaps the road you're walking on. But, I think they could easily put windmills in places which are already polluted on way or another. As another solution, they could build those windmills in 19th-century style :)

mdemare 11y ago
> Well, sometimes it can be wonderful to be in a place without any sign of civilization, except perhaps the road you're walking on. Agree, but in Holland, that ship has sailed.
- amelius 11y ago
  I guess the coast line (dunes, sea) is an exception. So they better not put those windmills there :)
  - wobbleblob 11y ago
    The dunes as they are today are very much man made actually. The natural dunes are low and constantly shifting inland. People were tired of sand blowing over their fields and villages, and started planting trees and marram grass on them to fix them in place. The dunes have grown very tall in some places as a result, some over 50 meters above sea level, by far the highest natural features in the coastal provinces. The coastline of Zeeland is very artificial of course, much of it is reclaimed land. In the north of course there is the sea dike of Camperduin and reclaimed land, and Wieringen is no longer an island. The Waddenzee is quite unnatural. The closing of the Zuiderzee has changed the water chemistry such that seagrass will not grow there any more, and the islands have all been fixed in place, while they would naturally migrate east. I mock Staatsbosbeheer in their constant effort, working hard to keep the landscape from evolving and to keep it in its 'natural' state. The natural state would be a low lying brackish wetland that's regularly flooded by the sea, and the natural state would be constantly evolving.
11y ago