7 ms·

Crunchpad renamed "JooJoo" will cost $499 on sale Dec. 11

204 points by maudineormsby 17y ago

maudineormsby 17y ago
Ultimately, I think $499 is too much for a device that essentially browses the web, and that's it. My netbook will do the web and lots of other things. Like let me play Civ II.
- conflux0 17y ago
  Many people said the same thing about netbooks, when they first came into the picture. In any case there might be a market for it, and it might be too early to decide the usefulness of the device.
  - wvenable 17y ago
    Yes, but now netbooks exist. I got mine for $279 and I can comfortably run Visual Studio on it. This device is significantly less powerful, not particularly more portable, and costs more. For the right price, I'd buy one -- this is not the right price.
    - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
      The real technical question is whether you'd be willing to pay a premium for the touchscreen.
    - smokinn 17y ago
      Try using a netbook standing up on the metro on your way to/from work. Tablets work fine for that though. (I have an Archos 5 I do exactly that with.)
      - wvenable 17y ago
        So you're saying that single convenience is worth purchasing a significantly less powerful device for significantly more money? For what I can do standing on the metro, I have a smartphone and it still does more and is cheaper than this device.
        smokinn 17y ago
        My Archos may be much less relevant when the Xperia X10 comes out (which I plan to get) but until then I have a dumb phone and want something to do on my 40 min ride to work. The Archos right now is my only good option. Even when the X10 comes out, depending on the screen, I may keep using the Archos anyway. The screen size is nice enough to watch a tv show and the resolution is great. The cell phone screen may be too small.
        potatolicious 17y ago
        > So you're saying that single convenience is worth purchasing a significantly less powerful device for significantly more money? Yes. Especially when the more powerful, cheaper device is really bad at whatever this single convenience is, whereas the new product is very good at it, and the single convenience is important to the user. See: Kindle vs. iPhone e-book reading.
        wvenable 17y ago
        The Kindle has unique attributes, Internet connectivity, and is relatively affordable. I'm not saying an Internet tablet is a poor product -- it's only poor at this price point. It might even be just this tablet that isn't worth it.
        potatolicious 17y ago
        I'd say it's this tablet - if I'm buying a tablet I want note-taking ability, drawing ability, and various features that really leverage the power of touch sensitivity. So far all they've shown us is a friggin web browser.
        anigbrowl 17y ago
      - rayval 17y ago
        Yes there are a lot of tablets these days. Why haven't they been successful? For example: http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-N800-Portable-Internet-Tablet/sim/B000MK4GGM/2/ref=dp_cp_ob_pc_sexpl http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-N800-Portable-Internet-Tablet/si...
        jrockway 17y ago
        Because it's ugly and requires a stylus. (You asked.) Things like the Archos tablets are much more realistic. My Archos 5 is great for web browsing, and I am sure the Archos 9 is a fine computer replacement. It hasn't caught on yet because it's not for sale yet.
      - mikeryan 17y ago
        That's a bit of an edge case isn't it?
      - blasdel 17y ago
        Try cradling a 10"+ tablet standing up on the metro on your way to/from work. Tablets that aren't pocket-sized have failed over and over again for very good reasons, gorilla-arm chief among them.
  - eli 17y ago
    That's a good point, but you can buy a legit laptop for $500 these days. I bet I could pick up a previous generation Thinkpad tablet for somewhere around there. I wonder how things will evolve once Chrome OS hits the scene.
  - halo 17y ago
    To be fair here, a more accurate comparison would be people saying the same thing about the $500 Palm Foleo, a similarly limited device which was crushed by negative press and relative limitations compared to its launch rival the Eee PC.
  - SamAtt 17y ago
    I'm sure there's a market for Tablets but this thing is $50 more expensive than Dell's top netbook which comes with a built in TV Tuner or GPS. In addition to the 160Gb hard drive, full copy of Windows, WiFi, keyboard and a screen just slightly smaller than this tablet (12.1 vs 10.1). For a device offering so little it's overpriced.
- dbreunig 17y ago
  Oh man. Say goodbye to productivity with Civ II on a tablet...
- sjs382 17y ago
  Agreed, but wow, this thing really gets style points from me. :) The thing has a USB port that could (presumably) be used for a keyboard if you required one. Wish I could get one with a full-fledged OS on it. In that case, I'd consider it.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  It is a bit pricey, but it's a nice size. I see Youtube in the photos so presumably it does Flash. If it handles HTML5 as well then the lack of local storage may not matter a whole lot. Much depends on the quality of the touch sensitivity. Meantime, Chandra is certainly being assertive about his side of the TechCrunch saga. If his claims are true then Michael Arrington's business cred is going to take a major hit.
  - elblanco 17y ago
    They would have probably been better served by giving a simple "no comment".
- warfangle 17y ago
  Absolutely. I'm really confused as to why they decided to roll their own OS rather than put a customized Android system on it.
  - mikeryan 17y ago
    AFAIK Fusion Garage was originally founded as an OS company prior to their involvement in the crunchpad.
  - seiji 17y ago
    Just because something is available doesn't mean it should be used. Android actually kinda sucks (second post on page): http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/ http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/
    - warfangle 17y ago
      Good points, I suppose. Personally, I'd rather have a tablet computer that had an android-like OS on it, instead of just a web browser. Being able to use apps that aren't necessarily suited to a web page would be nice. So would a 3G connection. It's the same price as the iPhone when it first came out, but it does radically less on a larger screen. Maybe if it were $100 it might be worth it - but at this price point it's fairly worthless, IMHO. That, of course, would be different if it had the kind of app capability droid does. As it is, it's overpriced backpack webtv. With a touchscreen.
- elblanco 17y ago
  Amazingly people don't say the same thing about Apple's ridiculous pricing.
- netcan 17y ago
  I think I agree, though you never know. My instinctive reaction is they should have pushed on the price. Smaller screen, whatever. While this may prove to be an incredibly useful device in the future, it hasn't yet. At the moment it's in the toy category, like the ipod touch. It's almost twice the acceptable price for a toy.
BigZaphod 17y ago
It says the weird green screen effect in those photos is a trick of the camera, but it's remarkably consistent given the different camera angles. What would cause that?
- maudineormsby 17y ago
  A low light filter on the webcam would do it consistently. I turn yellow on most webcams for some reason.
ErrantX 17y ago
I get a feeling this is going to become a case study in how not to develop a product. It's looking more and more like Arrington has totally screwed up contracts, agreements etc. And then it looks like this Fusion Garage CEO has a complete lack of understanding why the CrunchPad was a great name (etc).... Im willing to bet we never actually see a product - either that or it will bomb.
- maudineormsby 17y ago
  I'm voting bomb. They claim to have inventory already.
- seiji 17y ago
  It looks like they have no marketing or branding experience. Their logo is astonishingly confusing considering their name: https://thejoojoo.com/images/logo.jpg https://thejoojoo.com/images/logo.jpg "Let's call it JooJoo and have the logo read iooioo even though it's supposed to be spelled JuJu![1]" [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju
  - arthurk 17y ago
    And notice that the website title is "The Joo Joo". So, is it spelled "JooJoo" or "Joo Joo"?
  - nvasilak 17y ago
    Crunchpad was a far superior name. Unless theyre hoping religious puns bring it more press.
  - mattmcknight 17y ago
    And they don't even have joojoo.com How can you pick a gooft name like that and not even own the domain? It's a Korean site...
    - elblanco 17y ago
      That's what happens when you pick a name at the last minute without doing proper market research. At least it's not called "JooPad".
allenbrunson 17y ago
So, here it is: Fusion Garage's side of the story. And what do you know, it doesn't exactly match up with Arrington's version. Best bit: "There are no contracts between Fusion Garage and TechCrunch." Holy crap. I knew there was going to be more to this.
- joshfinnie 17y ago
  I have to agree with you. With Arrington's resent openness about the whole issue, you'd think he'd slap those contracts up on TechCrunch as fast as possible to refute any claim like this. He put up the lawsuits that were filed, but I haven't seen any contracts which lead me to believe they never existed. This is definitely a story of botched communications, but don't be so quick to believe this guy. I think when the dust settles, the truth will be somewhere in the middle of the two stories we are hearing.
  - mechanical_fish 17y ago
    you'd think he'd slap those contracts up on TechCrunch as fast as possible IANAL, but I suspect that from a legal standpoint his best plan is to say nothing. Even what has been said so far is much too much. If TC hadn't made such a big public push for the product that it was impossible to just let it quietly fade from view while the court battle was fought, I suspect TC wouldn't even have published what we've already seen, let alone more internal contracts and communications. What a clusterfk. The other obvious point that even a non-lawyer can make is: The absence of paper is not the same thing as the absence of contract.
- 9oliYQjP 17y ago
  I have made some harsh comments toward TechCrunch recently about this very issue (just check my comment history if you're unfamiliar). My suspicions were true. But now it's time to dish it out toward Fusion Garage. If I were Fusion Garage and an entity was marketing MY product as if it were their own, I would send a cease and desist letter immediately. Fusion Garage isn't exactly coming out of this story looking perfectly clean. TechCrunch probably does have some substance to a lawsuit should they file any. My gut tells me the whole venture is going to crash and burn. One shady business practice is indicative of a whole sh*tstorm of shady business practices and I would bet the launch of this product is met with delays, unmet promises, logistical mistakes, etc.
wheaties 17y ago
Looking at what he's holding versus what I saw in the hype pictures is a starkly different product in terms of size. I don't care if the green is a trick of the camera light or not Arrington was right if he wanted it priced topping in at 300-400. Netbooks are a much better deal.
pavs 17y ago
The only thing I liked about the whole webcast/interview is that fact that he said it the way it is, "Techcrunch is just a blog". Not only that, its a tech blog with authors that has little to no tech knowledge about the underlying technologies they write about. A tech news blog is itself a subject of news because of its hunger for drama.
- seiji 17y ago
  It's still possible this entire debacle is just a marketing grab and will be "resolved" amicably.
  - kierank 17y ago
    I get the feeling Techcrunch is doing a whole "Tomorrow Never Dies" thing here both with the "Twitter Leaks" and now this "argument about the Crunchpad"...
rms 17y ago
What a clusterfuck.
- tfh 17y ago
  indeed, that term describes it very well.
jeremymims 17y ago
You typically want to buy hardware from a trustworthy company. Whatever the truth is, I'd have trouble trusting Fusion Garage after this mess.
- ivankirigin 17y ago
  Indeed. You only need the appearance of impropriety to erode trust. Just because they can win a lawsuit doesn't mean they have a chance at making it. Also, I love how the camera made the screen green. It's pretty much the worst possible thing you could do in unveiling a product. I wouldn't buy it unless I saw it in real life, but I find that unlikely.
- vaksel 17y ago
  agreed....paying $500 for a product from a company that may not even exist 6 months later due to litigation, is insane.
- allenbrunson 17y ago
  I agree this looks bad. In their place, I would have tried to smooth things over ahead of time, to keep Arrington from writing the incendiary blog posts which started all this. But who knows? Arrington isn't known for being the easiest guy in the world to communicate with. Maybe they tried to do just that and failed. All things considered, if I really wanted one of these things, I don't think I'd let this flap deter me from buying one. But I don't want one, so take that with a grain of salt.
ryanwaggoner 17y ago
It's hard to tell exactly what's going on here, but clearly Arrington was an idiot if he didn't have any contracts in place. That said, I find fusion garage's side of the story pretty suspect, and even if it's true, I highly doubt they'll succeed. They seem way too focused on the product and the technology and seem to think it will market and sell itself. I hope TechCrunch sues. Even without a written contract, there must be heaps of verbal and written evidence as to exactly what the relationship here was. Letting the courts sort it out might be the only way to get close to the truth.
dbreunig 17y ago
I bet the IP TechCrunch owns is simply the brand "CrunchPad." Good luck with that suit. Fusion Garage's story is infinitely more believable than Arrington's. After both sides have spoken, I imagine it went down like this: They show him their OS in hopes of getting press and subsequent funding. Arrington loves the idea and wants in on the concept. Fusion Garage goes and actually builds the thing. Meetings take place with Fusion Garage probably passively hoping for funding through Arrington's connections and Arrington monopolizing the conversation with "product ideas" that are more pie-in-the-sky thinking than actual engineering. In the meantime, tablet fever grips the nation and a Fusion Garage with a working prototype has no trouble scoring VC meetings. They probably had to fight off the cash being thrown at them. Suddenly they don't need Arrington and those that actually came through with funding demand they end the charade of him being a participant. All they have to do is come up with a new name (Joojoo? Come on...) What remains to be seen is how TC's audience will react. The idea that Arrington apparently tried to glom onto the project with no engineering contributions perfectly fits the tropes discussed on HN: MBA-types make a buck off the back of those who actually built the thing. I wonder if this tale will actually hurt his rep? Who here will approach TC and Arrington differently after today?
- mpk 17y ago
  I have only the foggiest idea of what's going on here (this is a tablet PC running a web OS, right?), but this whole thing smacks of desperation. ChromeOS just went public, Apple may or may not do some tablet thing, Arrington is somehow involved and seems to be acting like an ass again, etc. I think someone pushed the panic button and said something along the lines of 'we go live now or the whole thing is dead!' All-in-all not a good way to start. My magic eight-ball tells me this project is doomed.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  The idea that Arrington apparently tried to glom onto the project with no engineering contributions perfectly fits the tropes discussed on HN: MBA-types make a buck off the back of those who actually built the thing. The fact that you already have so many upvotes just perfectly illustrates how so many people still don't get that sales and marketing are just as important to product success as engineering. Maybe more. Characterizing Arrington's involvement as an attempt to "glom onto the project with no engineering contributions" is both unwarranted idle speculation and irrelevant, as there are many other contributions to be made beyond just engineering.
mbreese 17y ago
I find it interesting that this all apparently happened so quickly, but the timing still seems off. The domain "thejoojoo.com" was registered on Nov 10th. They told TechCrunch about the split on the 17th, and that day TechCrunch applied for the trademark. I mean, who was running this show? Domain names and trademarks are supposed to be lined up and checked much further in advance. (Not to mention contracts...) On a side note: this is the tech equivalent of celebrity gossip... I'm sure that much worse has happened in the past, but never this publicly.
- ryanwaggoner 17y ago
  Don't you have to actually use a trademark before you can register it? This might have prevented them from doing so earlier?
  - roc 17y ago
    In the US you can file based on "Intent to Use".
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  > On a side note: this is the tech equivalent of celebrity gossip... Which is why I'm surprised the submission is not a techcrunch URL.
_ck_ 17y ago
Hasn't the Archos9 existed already at that price point? http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ Possibly with more features? Or is it vaporware?
asciilifeform 17y ago
Might someone explain to me why this device was ever considered interesting? In just what way is it unique?
- jodrellblank 17y ago
  Because there's nothing like it out there? It's not a cheap netbook with a small screen and a small keyboard, and it's not an expensive tablet PC with PC laptop innards - it's a cheap netbook innards/tablet PC form factor/touch screen browsing device. Because despite the price they were aiming at sounding too good to be true, everyone went "oh that sounds too good to be true ... but they say it so it must be true! I'll buy two!".
  - nl 17y ago
    I've posted it before & I'll post it again: http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268088826-touch-screen-umpc-wholesalers.html http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268088826-touch-scre... http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268087366-10-2-inch-touch-screen-panel-pc-wholesalers.html http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268087366-10-2-inch-... 10" touch screen, Atom Processor, standard netbook specs in a touchscreen tablet, prices from $288 in bulk. (I suspect it isn't a capacitative touchscreen but it's still inaccurate to say there is nothing like it out there)
    - asciilifeform 17y ago
      > tablet PC with PC laptop innards plus mass and and power consumption.
pibefision 17y ago
Comments at engadget are really funny
ajaimk 17y ago
So, why did they name it "penis" in chinese again?
- rbanffy 17y ago
  Because it has a 12 inch screen?
forensic 17y ago
Why does it only browse the web? How hard can it be to throw a desktop on there? You make all that hardware and then cripple it with limited software? Whateva. I would pay $499 if it had bluetooth and could run a normal OS. Also, these Fusion Garage guys need to hire a marketing/PR firm STAT. Fingerprint-marred green screen and scary looking nerd glowering at the camera is bad for business.
- netcan 17y ago
  You can already get a tablet that does that. I never understand these kinds of comments. "I wouldn't buy that. Why didn't they make it into a completely different kind of product." It's like looking at a motorbike & saying "They should have given it four wheels & aircon."
  - forensic 17y ago
    I guess I just don't understand wtf the point of this thing is when the Archos 9 is on sale for $499
    - netcan 17y ago
      I'm not saying this is a good product. I'm not sure it is. That is besides the point. I think the point is that it is a different approach to what the Archos 9, a Windows tablet. This is a browser in a box. Maybe browser in a box isn't a good idea. Maybe it will bomb. There are two main features/bugs to this: Browser in a box & tablet. Saying "why does it only browse the web?' is like saying 'Why doesn't it have a keyboard.'
      - forensic 17y ago
        Not having a keyboard is a good idea. The keyboard is a waste of space. It should just have bluetooth so you can hook up a keyboard if you want. They have all this hardware... it wouldn't be hard to turn it into something good. That's why I said what I said. Because all they need is an OS and bluetooth and IMO it would be worth the price they set.
vaporstun 17y ago
I am most intrigued at how Michael Arrington, a former attorney, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington] would have failed so miserably at doing anything to protect his interests. No contract? No formal IP? Nothing? That's quite an indicator that he likely had little to do with this device as Fusion Garage claims. If he'd actually done more to bring it to fruition, he would probably have taken the appropriate steps to safeguard his investment. For anyone else I may attribute a lapse like this as simply a mistake, but for an attorney to drop the ball this badly sounds quite suspicious...
- rbanffy 17y ago
  He may be an incompetent attorney. That could explain why he writes about technology in the first place ;-)
- jws 17y ago
  Was he a good attorney? In my experience the range of good to bad in attorneys is as great as it is in programmers.
datums 17y ago
So it was a fairly recent decision. thejoojoo.com Created: 2009-11-10 Expires: 2011-11-10 Updated: 2009-11-10 To ditch crunchpad or to go with joojoo
tlrobinson 17y ago
No contracts? That seems like a newbie mistake I wouldn't expect from Arrington...
johngalt 17y ago
Smartphones/netbooks have pretty much filled the niche for this device. You could add a radio to the cruchpad and it would be a bad cellphone. Even if there was any kind of success here, Quanta would zip in and build a netbook with a touchscreen and put them out of business fast. The flap over who owns it doesn't matter, it's already dead. The whole advantage of a "small team" development is to avoid issues like these all together. If Fusion and Arrington had both put everything into this project, it might have gone somewhere. But mediocre product + fractured team = failure. Best bet now would be to open the platform and hope someone with an open OS looking for hardware saves you.
jrockway 17y ago
Someone posted a comment that says: Hasn't the Archos9 existed already at that price point? http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ Possibly with more features? Or is it vaporware? But it seems to have been killed. I think he is right, though; the Archos is a much nicer device that's already shipping and that's cheaper.
tfh 17y ago
I wonder how all this story will affect the sales of the "joojoo" and of Apples coming Tablet. I was actually planning to get me a crunchpad but now I'll wait until all this settles down...
david927 17y ago
I'm surprised at the vitriol here. This was clearly a joint project that got hijacked out of greed. I was looking forward to buying several Crunchpads, but it will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy a JooJoo, just from principle.
- CamperBob 17y ago
  I seem to recall hearing a lot of people say the same thing when the Revolution became the "Wii."
Readmore 17y ago
It's an interesting story but at $499 I don't see it selling all that well. I'll continue to wait for the Apple Tablet.
zaidf 17y ago
Wow, all I can say is if they had nothing signed, Arrington committed a pretty amateur mistake. As a lawyer, he should have known better. That's assuming we know everything.
minalecs 17y ago
the only way i can see this thing succeeding, is if its extremely hackable. Allowing users to run any os.. would be the first start. Otherwise as web client - could be ok , but again, netbooks are much cheaper, and does possibly the same. I would like it mainly as an e-book reader as the 10" from amazon is around the same price point, but with no pdf reader, no sd slot, or any idea of internal memory its a fail as a reader.
jonursenbach 17y ago
joojoo: "karma. bad luck." http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joojoo http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joojoo
elblanco 17y ago
Pricepoint sounds more realistic yet still reasonable, glad to see it's still moving forward. Sad to see all the ugly behind the scenes business stuff (which is usually hidden from view, but all too common) airing in public.
julio_the_squid 17y ago
Well, they've certainly received a lot of publicity out of this. I read Tech Crunch an average amount and I actually wasn't aware at all of this device until recently. The device looks fairly average to me, and I can't image spending that much on a limited tablet style computer. The racism in the comments over at engadget sure is unpleasant. Also, the green screened pictures is certainly doing them a disservice!
jsz0 17y ago
My theory, which is pure speculation, is that Fusion Garage misinterpreted Arrington's support. He promotes many companies on his blog, TC50 and elsewhere. It seems entirely plausible that FG thought Arrington was simply an enthusiastic supporter trying to help a small company bring a product to market. Maybe they figured he would buy a bunch of units OEM and rebrand them as CrunchPads while they were free to sell the design to other companies or market a device at retail themselves. The fact that Mr. Arrington, who is a tech savy lawyer, apparently did not enter into any formal contracts supports this theory. He should know better. It's very suspicious that he would not clearly define the terms very early in the process. This suggests to me he wanted to swoop in and take control of the product only when it was nearing its completion. FG takes most of the risk -- he jumps in at the last second if they pull off the engineering side of things. The big question is who was paying the bills? Mr. Arrington originally said the CrunchPad was not about profit. So what's the problem with Fusion Garage selling their own device? Or even selling the design to other companies? Again this strikes me as being very suspicious. Wouldn't more manufactures competing against each other be true to his original vision? Was FG unwilling to sell him this hardware to be re-branded as CrunchPads or were they unwilling to give him exclusive access to it?
gregking 17y ago
$499!? -- I'll wait for Apple.
sandee 17y ago
It looks like FusionGarage was looking at initial funding (or acquisition) from techcrunch early in product development cycle. And techcrunch (i believe intentionally) avoided commiting anything earlier itself since they thought it as too risky. Techcrunch thought that they would bring in world class investors and team later around the product development ( few months before launch) and get a good stake in the product for that. And FusionGarage investors were frustrated that TC can come around later (when the risk is too low) and take a major bite of it. In between, TC claims that they did initial marketing for the product. Technically it may be correct. But From risk factor, what was at stake here for TC ? Actually TC biz model works on buzz factor. More Buzz equals more readers and Revenue. So at worst (if product fails), they made some money out of the whole buzz. But for FusionGarage (and their investors), everything was at stake. Arrington might be correct, they could have negotiated on the product stake. ( How about : 2% for initial idea discussion, 2% for initial marketing, and 2% bring in new investors and team .) I guess such a 5-6% offer would have still led to such a breakup. (But can u give a 30% stake just for blogging about a product ?) To me, Arrington is a Bad (Scary) Startup-Investor here (keeping the startup in guessing game till end ..), and FusionGarage has a bad CEO who could not anticipate what was to come. And those investors are smart to bring the whole stuff out before the product is actually launched.
shabda 17y ago
Zoozoo is also the name of Vodaphone's India mascot, and has proved very popular. Not sure how that affects this, buts its not a terrible name, IMO. http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&ei=NrMdS6-xGo3u7AP3wOTXDw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAgQBSgA&q=zoozoo+vodafone&spell=1 http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&ei=NrMdS6-xGo3u7AP3...
c00p3r 17y ago
Did they still want their custom OS instead of port of the Chrome OS? It seems that they should think again.
mike9999 17y ago
I'm betting this is a publicity stunt. This has all been too public for a real lawsuit. They have gotten much more mindshare from all the blogs due to their "fight" then if they had just announced the product in a normal way.
khangtoh 17y ago
Even touchpad, webpad or cloud-D sounds way cool then joojoo and I just thought of those while in bed and typing this on my iPhone.
herval 17y ago
Is it just me or that guy looks a lot like a Klingon?

204 points by maudineormsby 17y ago

Ultimately, I think $499 is too much for a device that essentially browses the web, and that's it. My netbook will do the web and lots of other things. Like let me play Civ II.

conflux0 17y ago
Many people said the same thing about netbooks, when they first came into the picture. In any case there might be a market for it, and it might be too early to decide the usefulness of the device.
- wvenable 17y ago
  Yes, but now netbooks exist. I got mine for $279 and I can comfortably run Visual Studio on it. This device is significantly less powerful, not particularly more portable, and costs more. For the right price, I'd buy one -- this is not the right price.
  - RyanMcGreal 17y ago
    The real technical question is whether you'd be willing to pay a premium for the touchscreen.
  - smokinn 17y ago
    Try using a netbook standing up on the metro on your way to/from work. Tablets work fine for that though. (I have an Archos 5 I do exactly that with.)
    - wvenable 17y ago
      So you're saying that single convenience is worth purchasing a significantly less powerful device for significantly more money? For what I can do standing on the metro, I have a smartphone and it still does more and is cheaper than this device.
      - smokinn 17y ago
        My Archos may be much less relevant when the Xperia X10 comes out (which I plan to get) but until then I have a dumb phone and want something to do on my 40 min ride to work. The Archos right now is my only good option. Even when the X10 comes out, depending on the screen, I may keep using the Archos anyway. The screen size is nice enough to watch a tv show and the resolution is great. The cell phone screen may be too small.
      - potatolicious 17y ago
        > So you're saying that single convenience is worth purchasing a significantly less powerful device for significantly more money? Yes. Especially when the more powerful, cheaper device is really bad at whatever this single convenience is, whereas the new product is very good at it, and the single convenience is important to the user. See: Kindle vs. iPhone e-book reading.
        wvenable 17y ago
        The Kindle has unique attributes, Internet connectivity, and is relatively affordable. I'm not saying an Internet tablet is a poor product -- it's only poor at this price point. It might even be just this tablet that isn't worth it.
        potatolicious 17y ago
        I'd say it's this tablet - if I'm buying a tablet I want note-taking ability, drawing ability, and various features that really leverage the power of touch sensitivity. So far all they've shown us is a friggin web browser.
      - anigbrowl 17y ago
    - rayval 17y ago
      Yes there are a lot of tablets these days. Why haven't they been successful? For example: http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-N800-Portable-Internet-Tablet/sim/B000MK4GGM/2/ref=dp_cp_ob_pc_sexpl http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-N800-Portable-Internet-Tablet/si...
      - jrockway 17y ago
        Because it's ugly and requires a stylus. (You asked.) Things like the Archos tablets are much more realistic. My Archos 5 is great for web browsing, and I am sure the Archos 9 is a fine computer replacement. It hasn't caught on yet because it's not for sale yet.
    - mikeryan 17y ago
      That's a bit of an edge case isn't it?
    - blasdel 17y ago
      Try cradling a 10"+ tablet standing up on the metro on your way to/from work. Tablets that aren't pocket-sized have failed over and over again for very good reasons, gorilla-arm chief among them.
- eli 17y ago
  That's a good point, but you can buy a legit laptop for $500 these days. I bet I could pick up a previous generation Thinkpad tablet for somewhere around there. I wonder how things will evolve once Chrome OS hits the scene.
- halo 17y ago
  To be fair here, a more accurate comparison would be people saying the same thing about the $500 Palm Foleo, a similarly limited device which was crushed by negative press and relative limitations compared to its launch rival the Eee PC.
- SamAtt 17y ago
  I'm sure there's a market for Tablets but this thing is $50 more expensive than Dell's top netbook which comes with a built in TV Tuner or GPS. In addition to the 160Gb hard drive, full copy of Windows, WiFi, keyboard and a screen just slightly smaller than this tablet (12.1 vs 10.1). For a device offering so little it's overpriced.
dbreunig 17y ago
Oh man. Say goodbye to productivity with Civ II on a tablet...
sjs382 17y ago
Agreed, but wow, this thing really gets style points from me. :) The thing has a USB port that could (presumably) be used for a keyboard if you required one. Wish I could get one with a full-fledged OS on it. In that case, I'd consider it.
anigbrowl 17y ago
It is a bit pricey, but it's a nice size. I see Youtube in the photos so presumably it does Flash. If it handles HTML5 as well then the lack of local storage may not matter a whole lot. Much depends on the quality of the touch sensitivity. Meantime, Chandra is certainly being assertive about his side of the TechCrunch saga. If his claims are true then Michael Arrington's business cred is going to take a major hit.
- elblanco 17y ago
  They would have probably been better served by giving a simple "no comment".
warfangle 17y ago
Absolutely. I'm really confused as to why they decided to roll their own OS rather than put a customized Android system on it.
- mikeryan 17y ago
  AFAIK Fusion Garage was originally founded as an OS company prior to their involvement in the crunchpad.
- seiji 17y ago
  Just because something is available doesn't mean it should be used. Android actually kinda sucks (second post on page): http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/ http://laforge.gnumonks.org/weblog/2009/11/04/
  - warfangle 17y ago
    Good points, I suppose. Personally, I'd rather have a tablet computer that had an android-like OS on it, instead of just a web browser. Being able to use apps that aren't necessarily suited to a web page would be nice. So would a 3G connection. It's the same price as the iPhone when it first came out, but it does radically less on a larger screen. Maybe if it were $100 it might be worth it - but at this price point it's fairly worthless, IMHO. That, of course, would be different if it had the kind of app capability droid does. As it is, it's overpriced backpack webtv. With a touchscreen.
elblanco 17y ago
Amazingly people don't say the same thing about Apple's ridiculous pricing.
netcan 17y ago
I think I agree, though you never know. My instinctive reaction is they should have pushed on the price. Smaller screen, whatever. While this may prove to be an incredibly useful device in the future, it hasn't yet. At the moment it's in the toy category, like the ipod touch. It's almost twice the acceptable price for a toy.

BigZaphod 17y ago

It says the weird green screen effect in those photos is a trick of the camera, but it's remarkably consistent given the different camera angles. What would cause that?

maudineormsby 17y ago
A low light filter on the webcam would do it consistently. I turn yellow on most webcams for some reason.

ErrantX 17y ago

I get a feeling this is going to become a case study in how not to develop a product. It's looking more and more like Arrington has totally screwed up contracts, agreements etc. And then it looks like this Fusion Garage CEO has a complete lack of understanding why the CrunchPad was a great name (etc).... Im willing to bet we never actually see a product - either that or it will bomb.

maudineormsby 17y ago
I'm voting bomb. They claim to have inventory already.
seiji 17y ago
It looks like they have no marketing or branding experience. Their logo is astonishingly confusing considering their name: https://thejoojoo.com/images/logo.jpg https://thejoojoo.com/images/logo.jpg "Let's call it JooJoo and have the logo read iooioo even though it's supposed to be spelled JuJu![1]" [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juju
- arthurk 17y ago
  And notice that the website title is "The Joo Joo". So, is it spelled "JooJoo" or "Joo Joo"?
- nvasilak 17y ago
  Crunchpad was a far superior name. Unless theyre hoping religious puns bring it more press.
- mattmcknight 17y ago
  And they don't even have joojoo.com How can you pick a gooft name like that and not even own the domain? It's a Korean site...
  - elblanco 17y ago
    That's what happens when you pick a name at the last minute without doing proper market research. At least it's not called "JooPad".

allenbrunson 17y ago

So, here it is: Fusion Garage's side of the story. And what do you know, it doesn't exactly match up with Arrington's version. Best bit: "There are no contracts between Fusion Garage and TechCrunch." Holy crap. I knew there was going to be more to this.

joshfinnie 17y ago
I have to agree with you. With Arrington's resent openness about the whole issue, you'd think he'd slap those contracts up on TechCrunch as fast as possible to refute any claim like this. He put up the lawsuits that were filed, but I haven't seen any contracts which lead me to believe they never existed. This is definitely a story of botched communications, but don't be so quick to believe this guy. I think when the dust settles, the truth will be somewhere in the middle of the two stories we are hearing.
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  you'd think he'd slap those contracts up on TechCrunch as fast as possible IANAL, but I suspect that from a legal standpoint his best plan is to say nothing. Even what has been said so far is much too much. If TC hadn't made such a big public push for the product that it was impossible to just let it quietly fade from view while the court battle was fought, I suspect TC wouldn't even have published what we've already seen, let alone more internal contracts and communications. What a clusterfk. The other obvious point that even a non-lawyer can make is: The absence of paper is not the same thing as the absence of contract.
9oliYQjP 17y ago
I have made some harsh comments toward TechCrunch recently about this very issue (just check my comment history if you're unfamiliar). My suspicions were true. But now it's time to dish it out toward Fusion Garage. If I were Fusion Garage and an entity was marketing MY product as if it were their own, I would send a cease and desist letter immediately. Fusion Garage isn't exactly coming out of this story looking perfectly clean. TechCrunch probably does have some substance to a lawsuit should they file any. My gut tells me the whole venture is going to crash and burn. One shady business practice is indicative of a whole sh*tstorm of shady business practices and I would bet the launch of this product is met with delays, unmet promises, logistical mistakes, etc.

wheaties 17y ago

Looking at what he's holding versus what I saw in the hype pictures is a starkly different product in terms of size. I don't care if the green is a trick of the camera light or not Arrington was right if he wanted it priced topping in at 300-400. Netbooks are a much better deal.

pavs 17y ago

The only thing I liked about the whole webcast/interview is that fact that he said it the way it is, "Techcrunch is just a blog". Not only that, its a tech blog with authors that has little to no tech knowledge about the underlying technologies they write about. A tech news blog is itself a subject of news because of its hunger for drama.

seiji 17y ago
It's still possible this entire debacle is just a marketing grab and will be "resolved" amicably.
- kierank 17y ago
  I get the feeling Techcrunch is doing a whole "Tomorrow Never Dies" thing here both with the "Twitter Leaks" and now this "argument about the Crunchpad"...

rms 17y ago

What a clusterfuck.

tfh 17y ago
indeed, that term describes it very well.

jeremymims 17y ago

You typically want to buy hardware from a trustworthy company. Whatever the truth is, I'd have trouble trusting Fusion Garage after this mess.

ivankirigin 17y ago
Indeed. You only need the appearance of impropriety to erode trust. Just because they can win a lawsuit doesn't mean they have a chance at making it. Also, I love how the camera made the screen green. It's pretty much the worst possible thing you could do in unveiling a product. I wouldn't buy it unless I saw it in real life, but I find that unlikely.
vaksel 17y ago
agreed....paying $500 for a product from a company that may not even exist 6 months later due to litigation, is insane.
allenbrunson 17y ago
I agree this looks bad. In their place, I would have tried to smooth things over ahead of time, to keep Arrington from writing the incendiary blog posts which started all this. But who knows? Arrington isn't known for being the easiest guy in the world to communicate with. Maybe they tried to do just that and failed. All things considered, if I really wanted one of these things, I don't think I'd let this flap deter me from buying one. But I don't want one, so take that with a grain of salt.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago

It's hard to tell exactly what's going on here, but clearly Arrington was an idiot if he didn't have any contracts in place. That said, I find fusion garage's side of the story pretty suspect, and even if it's true, I highly doubt they'll succeed. They seem way too focused on the product and the technology and seem to think it will market and sell itself. I hope TechCrunch sues. Even without a written contract, there must be heaps of verbal and written evidence as to exactly what the relationship here was. Letting the courts sort it out might be the only way to get close to the truth.

dbreunig 17y ago

I bet the IP TechCrunch owns is simply the brand "CrunchPad." Good luck with that suit. Fusion Garage's story is infinitely more believable than Arrington's. After both sides have spoken, I imagine it went down like this: They show him their OS in hopes of getting press and subsequent funding. Arrington loves the idea and wants in on the concept. Fusion Garage goes and actually builds the thing. Meetings take place with Fusion Garage probably passively hoping for funding through Arrington's connections and Arrington monopolizing the conversation with "product ideas" that are more pie-in-the-sky thinking than actual engineering. In the meantime, tablet fever grips the nation and a Fusion Garage with a working prototype has no trouble scoring VC meetings. They probably had to fight off the cash being thrown at them. Suddenly they don't need Arrington and those that actually came through with funding demand they end the charade of him being a participant. All they have to do is come up with a new name (Joojoo? Come on...) What remains to be seen is how TC's audience will react. The idea that Arrington apparently tried to glom onto the project with no engineering contributions perfectly fits the tropes discussed on HN: MBA-types make a buck off the back of those who actually built the thing. I wonder if this tale will actually hurt his rep? Who here will approach TC and Arrington differently after today?

mpk 17y ago
I have only the foggiest idea of what's going on here (this is a tablet PC running a web OS, right?), but this whole thing smacks of desperation. ChromeOS just went public, Apple may or may not do some tablet thing, Arrington is somehow involved and seems to be acting like an ass again, etc. I think someone pushed the panic button and said something along the lines of 'we go live now or the whole thing is dead!' All-in-all not a good way to start. My magic eight-ball tells me this project is doomed.
ryanwaggoner 17y ago
The idea that Arrington apparently tried to glom onto the project with no engineering contributions perfectly fits the tropes discussed on HN: MBA-types make a buck off the back of those who actually built the thing. The fact that you already have so many upvotes just perfectly illustrates how so many people still don't get that sales and marketing are just as important to product success as engineering. Maybe more. Characterizing Arrington's involvement as an attempt to "glom onto the project with no engineering contributions" is both unwarranted idle speculation and irrelevant, as there are many other contributions to be made beyond just engineering.

mbreese 17y ago

I find it interesting that this all apparently happened so quickly, but the timing still seems off. The domain "thejoojoo.com" was registered on Nov 10th. They told TechCrunch about the split on the 17th, and that day TechCrunch applied for the trademark. I mean, who was running this show? Domain names and trademarks are supposed to be lined up and checked much further in advance. (Not to mention contracts...) On a side note: this is the tech equivalent of celebrity gossip... I'm sure that much worse has happened in the past, but never this publicly.

ryanwaggoner 17y ago
Don't you have to actually use a trademark before you can register it? This might have prevented them from doing so earlier?
- roc 17y ago
  In the US you can file based on "Intent to Use".
jodrellblank 17y ago
> On a side note: this is the tech equivalent of celebrity gossip... Which is why I'm surprised the submission is not a techcrunch URL.

_ck_ 17y ago

Hasn't the Archos9 existed already at that price point? http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ Possibly with more features? Or is it vaporware?

asciilifeform 17y ago

Might someone explain to me why this device was ever considered interesting? In just what way is it unique?

jodrellblank 17y ago
Because there's nothing like it out there? It's not a cheap netbook with a small screen and a small keyboard, and it's not an expensive tablet PC with PC laptop innards - it's a cheap netbook innards/tablet PC form factor/touch screen browsing device. Because despite the price they were aiming at sounding too good to be true, everyone went "oh that sounds too good to be true ... but they say it so it must be true! I'll buy two!".
- nl 17y ago
  I've posted it before & I'll post it again: http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268088826-touch-screen-umpc-wholesalers.html http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268088826-touch-scre... http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268087366-10-2-inch-touch-screen-panel-pc-wholesalers.html http://wholesale.alibaba.com/product-gs/268087366-10-2-inch-... 10" touch screen, Atom Processor, standard netbook specs in a touchscreen tablet, prices from $288 in bulk. (I suspect it isn't a capacitative touchscreen but it's still inaccurate to say there is nothing like it out there)
  - asciilifeform 17y ago
    > tablet PC with PC laptop innards plus mass and and power consumption.

pibefision 17y ago

Comments at engadget are really funny

ajaimk 17y ago

So, why did they name it "penis" in chinese again?

rbanffy 17y ago
Because it has a 12 inch screen?

forensic 17y ago

Why does it only browse the web? How hard can it be to throw a desktop on there? You make all that hardware and then cripple it with limited software? Whateva. I would pay $499 if it had bluetooth and could run a normal OS. Also, these Fusion Garage guys need to hire a marketing/PR firm STAT. Fingerprint-marred green screen and scary looking nerd glowering at the camera is bad for business.

netcan 17y ago
You can already get a tablet that does that. I never understand these kinds of comments. "I wouldn't buy that. Why didn't they make it into a completely different kind of product." It's like looking at a motorbike & saying "They should have given it four wheels & aircon."
- forensic 17y ago
  I guess I just don't understand wtf the point of this thing is when the Archos 9 is on sale for $499
  - netcan 17y ago
    I'm not saying this is a good product. I'm not sure it is. That is besides the point. I think the point is that it is a different approach to what the Archos 9, a Windows tablet. This is a browser in a box. Maybe browser in a box isn't a good idea. Maybe it will bomb. There are two main features/bugs to this: Browser in a box & tablet. Saying "why does it only browse the web?' is like saying 'Why doesn't it have a keyboard.'
    - forensic 17y ago
      Not having a keyboard is a good idea. The keyboard is a waste of space. It should just have bluetooth so you can hook up a keyboard if you want. They have all this hardware... it wouldn't be hard to turn it into something good. That's why I said what I said. Because all they need is an OS and bluetooth and IMO it would be worth the price they set.

vaporstun 17y ago

I am most intrigued at how Michael Arrington, a former attorney, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Arrington] would have failed so miserably at doing anything to protect his interests. No contract? No formal IP? Nothing? That's quite an indicator that he likely had little to do with this device as Fusion Garage claims. If he'd actually done more to bring it to fruition, he would probably have taken the appropriate steps to safeguard his investment. For anyone else I may attribute a lapse like this as simply a mistake, but for an attorney to drop the ball this badly sounds quite suspicious...

rbanffy 17y ago
He may be an incompetent attorney. That could explain why he writes about technology in the first place ;-)
jws 17y ago
Was he a good attorney? In my experience the range of good to bad in attorneys is as great as it is in programmers.

datums 17y ago

So it was a fairly recent decision. thejoojoo.com Created: 2009-11-10 Expires: 2011-11-10 Updated: 2009-11-10 To ditch crunchpad or to go with joojoo

tlrobinson 17y ago

No contracts? That seems like a newbie mistake I wouldn't expect from Arrington...

johngalt 17y ago

Smartphones/netbooks have pretty much filled the niche for this device. You could add a radio to the cruchpad and it would be a bad cellphone. Even if there was any kind of success here, Quanta would zip in and build a netbook with a touchscreen and put them out of business fast. The flap over who owns it doesn't matter, it's already dead. The whole advantage of a "small team" development is to avoid issues like these all together. If Fusion and Arrington had both put everything into this project, it might have gone somewhere. But mediocre product + fractured team = failure. Best bet now would be to open the platform and hope someone with an open OS looking for hardware saves you.

jrockway 17y ago

Someone posted a comment that says: Hasn't the Archos9 existed already at that price point? http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ http://www.archos.com/products/nb/archos_9/ Possibly with more features? Or is it vaporware? But it seems to have been killed. I think he is right, though; the Archos is a much nicer device that's already shipping and that's cheaper.

tfh 17y ago

I wonder how all this story will affect the sales of the "joojoo" and of Apples coming Tablet. I was actually planning to get me a crunchpad but now I'll wait until all this settles down...

david927 17y ago

I'm surprised at the vitriol here. This was clearly a joint project that got hijacked out of greed. I was looking forward to buying several Crunchpads, but it will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy a JooJoo, just from principle.

CamperBob 17y ago
I seem to recall hearing a lot of people say the same thing when the Revolution became the "Wii."

Readmore 17y ago

It's an interesting story but at $499 I don't see it selling all that well. I'll continue to wait for the Apple Tablet.

zaidf 17y ago

Wow, all I can say is if they had nothing signed, Arrington committed a pretty amateur mistake. As a lawyer, he should have known better. That's assuming we know everything.

minalecs 17y ago

the only way i can see this thing succeeding, is if its extremely hackable. Allowing users to run any os.. would be the first start. Otherwise as web client - could be ok , but again, netbooks are much cheaper, and does possibly the same. I would like it mainly as an e-book reader as the 10" from amazon is around the same price point, but with no pdf reader, no sd slot, or any idea of internal memory its a fail as a reader.

jonursenbach 17y ago

joojoo: "karma. bad luck." http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joojoo http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=joojoo

elblanco 17y ago

Pricepoint sounds more realistic yet still reasonable, glad to see it's still moving forward. Sad to see all the ugly behind the scenes business stuff (which is usually hidden from view, but all too common) airing in public.

julio_the_squid 17y ago

Well, they've certainly received a lot of publicity out of this. I read Tech Crunch an average amount and I actually wasn't aware at all of this device until recently. The device looks fairly average to me, and I can't image spending that much on a limited tablet style computer. The racism in the comments over at engadget sure is unpleasant. Also, the green screened pictures is certainly doing them a disservice!

jsz0 17y ago

My theory, which is pure speculation, is that Fusion Garage misinterpreted Arrington's support. He promotes many companies on his blog, TC50 and elsewhere. It seems entirely plausible that FG thought Arrington was simply an enthusiastic supporter trying to help a small company bring a product to market. Maybe they figured he would buy a bunch of units OEM and rebrand them as CrunchPads while they were free to sell the design to other companies or market a device at retail themselves. The fact that Mr. Arrington, who is a tech savy lawyer, apparently did not enter into any formal contracts supports this theory. He should know better. It's very suspicious that he would not clearly define the terms very early in the process. This suggests to me he wanted to swoop in and take control of the product only when it was nearing its completion. FG takes most of the risk -- he jumps in at the last second if they pull off the engineering side of things. The big question is who was paying the bills? Mr. Arrington originally said the CrunchPad was not about profit. So what's the problem with Fusion Garage selling their own device? Or even selling the design to other companies? Again this strikes me as being very suspicious. Wouldn't more manufactures competing against each other be true to his original vision? Was FG unwilling to sell him this hardware to be re-branded as CrunchPads or were they unwilling to give him exclusive access to it?

gregking 17y ago

$499!? -- I'll wait for Apple.

sandee 17y ago

It looks like FusionGarage was looking at initial funding (or acquisition) from techcrunch early in product development cycle. And techcrunch (i believe intentionally) avoided commiting anything earlier itself since they thought it as too risky. Techcrunch thought that they would bring in world class investors and team later around the product development ( few months before launch) and get a good stake in the product for that. And FusionGarage investors were frustrated that TC can come around later (when the risk is too low) and take a major bite of it. In between, TC claims that they did initial marketing for the product. Technically it may be correct. But From risk factor, what was at stake here for TC ? Actually TC biz model works on buzz factor. More Buzz equals more readers and Revenue. So at worst (if product fails), they made some money out of the whole buzz. But for FusionGarage (and their investors), everything was at stake. Arrington might be correct, they could have negotiated on the product stake. ( How about : 2% for initial idea discussion, 2% for initial marketing, and 2% bring in new investors and team .) I guess such a 5-6% offer would have still led to such a breakup. (But can u give a 30% stake just for blogging about a product ?) To me, Arrington is a Bad (Scary) Startup-Investor here (keeping the startup in guessing game till end ..), and FusionGarage has a bad CEO who could not anticipate what was to come. And those investors are smart to bring the whole stuff out before the product is actually launched.

shabda 17y ago

Zoozoo is also the name of Vodaphone's India mascot, and has proved very popular. Not sure how that affects this, buts its not a terrible name, IMO. http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&ei=NrMdS6-xGo3u7AP3wOTXDw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAgQBSgA&q=zoozoo+vodafone&spell=1 http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&ei=NrMdS6-xGo3u7AP3...

c00p3r 17y ago

Did they still want their custom OS instead of port of the Chrome OS? It seems that they should think again.

mike9999 17y ago

I'm betting this is a publicity stunt. This has all been too public for a real lawsuit. They have gotten much more mindshare from all the blogs due to their "fight" then if they had just announced the product in a normal way.

khangtoh 17y ago

Even touchpad, webpad or cloud-D sounds way cool then joojoo and I just thought of those while in bed and typing this on my iPhone.

herval 17y ago

Is it just me or that guy looks a lot like a Klingon?