4 ms·

Honest question: Can someone explain, in plain english, why it would be a bad idea to just kick Greece out of the EU? What's wrong with some good old anarchy an

by shiven 11y ago

Honest question: Can someone explain, in plain english, why it would be a bad idea to just kick Greece out of the EU? What's wrong with some good old anarchy and lynching a few dozen former politicians who led the Greeks to this abyss in the first place? As an outsider, I am shocked by the hullaballoo going on to keep Greece in the EU. Why not let them reap what they sowed, as a nation?

marcosdumay 11y ago
As far as I know, if Greece does nothing very wrong (and defaulting isn't) there's no rule allowing other countries to kick them. Anyway, Greece does not want to get out because on the EU they can travel and commercialize. That's the easy one. Germany and the other creditors, by their side, do not want it because Greece may not pass trough that anarchy you talk about, but instead may get at the other side better than it is now. If that happens, the EU and their own economies are gone.
Lazare 11y ago
First, there's the currency (the euro), and the political and economic union (the EU). There's a lot of overlap, but they're not the same. There's a lot of debate about Greece and the euro, and while the current Greek government was elected on a platform of staying in the Euro, right now Greece is rapidly heading towards being ejected from it. But there's no real prospect (for now, anyhow) of them leaving the EU. > why it would be a bad idea to just kick Greece out of the EU? If you mean the EU, well, nobody really wants them to exit the Euro, but nobody wants them to exit the EU. It would also be ridiculously illegal; there's literally no process by which a country might be ejected. If you mean the Euro, well, that's an interesting question. The general consensus is that Greek exit would hurt the remaining members and Greece fairly severely; a real case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Some have suggested (and I agree) that a Greek exit would be worse for the remaining Euro-members than it would be for Greece. > What's wrong with some good old anarchy We're talking about people lives; pensions, savings, jobs, dreams. I don't think your flippancy is really appropriate. In any case the victims of a Greek exit won't be politicians and bankers; it will be ordinary people, in and outside of Greece. > lynching a few dozen former politicians who led the Greeks to this abyss I don't think you understand politics. > Why not let them reap what they sowed For EU leaders, this isn't about Greece, it's about the Euro and the greater project of European integration. They don't want Greece out of the Euro, and they sure as hell don't want them out of the EU. What they want is to keep Greece in the EU, without pissing off their voters too much. It looks like, at the moment, Greece will exit the EU despite what people want.
- shiven 11y ago
  Thanks for the detailed reply! You are quite right about the part where I don't understand politics. I like revolutions better! Especially, where the guilty heads roll, figuratively at least. However, this looks like a terrible mess that will, more likely than not, result in a humanitarian crisis of mythological scale, visited upon the poorest and weakest members of Greek society. So why don't EU states let Greece have that much needed meltdown, but use their money to aid those most in need during the ensuing crisis? I mean, by your analysis, no one culpable takes the fall. And who is culpable, if not the politicians in power over the past decade?
  - Lazare 11y ago
    > I like revolutions better! Especially, where the guilty heads roll, figuratively at least. The average Greek in the streets is more likely to blame German politicians than their own, so no revolution is likely. (And I'm not sure they'd be wrong either.) > result in a humanitarian crisis of mythological scale, visited upon the poorest and weakest members of Greek society. Honestly, I'm not sure it'll be much worse than what's already happened. The "internal devaluation" Greece has been forced to weather has been brutal, to the point that default and a "real" devaluation offers real hope of improvement. > So why don't EU states let Greece have that much needed meltdown, but use their money to aid those most in need during the ensuing crisis? The entire issue is that the rest of the EU (including some parts which are actually poorer than Greece, and have zero moral obligation to be sympathetic) really has no interest in spending their money to continue aiding Greece. Their voters, especially, do not. If they did, Greece wouldn't be heading towards default and exit of the Euro. But they don't, and as such, I don't think there's any good solution here. In retrospect, Greece should never have joined the Euro.
allendoerfer 11y ago
Nobody is talking about kicking Greece out of the EU. The current crisis is about the Euro group within the EU. Problems with kicking Greek out of the Euro are: - Greece is reliant on Russian gas. How are they going to pay for that? A weaker currency would make this problem worse. The often told story, that their exports would become cheaper does not apply very much, when your biggest company is a betting office. - When Greece leaves with the option to get back in, countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain and even France would have much less pressure to consolidate their state finances. - The Euro is not just a currency - it is a step towards European integration. With Russia biting of parts in the East, we cannot compensate to be set back this much. And last but not least: I use this currency to pay my rent, do not fuck it up!
aikah 11y ago
First , you can just kick a country out of the EU, that's impossible, once they are in they are in forever. Second if somehow you did this it would be the end of the EU politically speaking. It's already dead anyway since the Greek crisis has proven there is no real solidarity between EU states (and no,bailing out banks is no solidarity).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by shiven 11y ago

marcosdumay 11y ago

As far as I know, if Greece does nothing very wrong (and defaulting isn't) there's no rule allowing other countries to kick them. Anyway, Greece does not want to get out because on the EU they can travel and commercialize. That's the easy one. Germany and the other creditors, by their side, do not want it because Greece may not pass trough that anarchy you talk about, but instead may get at the other side better than it is now. If that happens, the EU and their own economies are gone.

Lazare 11y ago

First, there's the currency (the euro), and the political and economic union (the EU). There's a lot of overlap, but they're not the same. There's a lot of debate about Greece and the euro, and while the current Greek government was elected on a platform of staying in the Euro, right now Greece is rapidly heading towards being ejected from it. But there's no real prospect (for now, anyhow) of them leaving the EU. > why it would be a bad idea to just kick Greece out of the EU? If you mean the EU, well, nobody really wants them to exit the Euro, but nobody wants them to exit the EU. It would also be ridiculously illegal; there's literally no process by which a country might be ejected. If you mean the Euro, well, that's an interesting question. The general consensus is that Greek exit would hurt the remaining members and Greece fairly severely; a real case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Some have suggested (and I agree) that a Greek exit would be worse for the remaining Euro-members than it would be for Greece. > What's wrong with some good old anarchy We're talking about people lives; pensions, savings, jobs, dreams. I don't think your flippancy is really appropriate. In any case the victims of a Greek exit won't be politicians and bankers; it will be ordinary people, in and outside of Greece. > lynching a few dozen former politicians who led the Greeks to this abyss I don't think you understand politics. > Why not let them reap what they sowed For EU leaders, this isn't about Greece, it's about the Euro and the greater project of European integration. They don't want Greece out of the Euro, and they sure as hell don't want them out of the EU. What they want is to keep Greece in the EU, without pissing off their voters too much. It looks like, at the moment, Greece will exit the EU despite what people want.

shiven 11y ago
Thanks for the detailed reply! You are quite right about the part where I don't understand politics. I like revolutions better! Especially, where the guilty heads roll, figuratively at least. However, this looks like a terrible mess that will, more likely than not, result in a humanitarian crisis of mythological scale, visited upon the poorest and weakest members of Greek society. So why don't EU states let Greece have that much needed meltdown, but use their money to aid those most in need during the ensuing crisis? I mean, by your analysis, no one culpable takes the fall. And who is culpable, if not the politicians in power over the past decade?
- Lazare 11y ago
  > I like revolutions better! Especially, where the guilty heads roll, figuratively at least. The average Greek in the streets is more likely to blame German politicians than their own, so no revolution is likely. (And I'm not sure they'd be wrong either.) > result in a humanitarian crisis of mythological scale, visited upon the poorest and weakest members of Greek society. Honestly, I'm not sure it'll be much worse than what's already happened. The "internal devaluation" Greece has been forced to weather has been brutal, to the point that default and a "real" devaluation offers real hope of improvement. > So why don't EU states let Greece have that much needed meltdown, but use their money to aid those most in need during the ensuing crisis? The entire issue is that the rest of the EU (including some parts which are actually poorer than Greece, and have zero moral obligation to be sympathetic) really has no interest in spending their money to continue aiding Greece. Their voters, especially, do not. If they did, Greece wouldn't be heading towards default and exit of the Euro. But they don't, and as such, I don't think there's any good solution here. In retrospect, Greece should never have joined the Euro.

allendoerfer 11y ago

Nobody is talking about kicking Greece out of the EU. The current crisis is about the Euro group within the EU. Problems with kicking Greek out of the Euro are: - Greece is reliant on Russian gas. How are they going to pay for that? A weaker currency would make this problem worse. The often told story, that their exports would become cheaper does not apply very much, when your biggest company is a betting office. - When Greece leaves with the option to get back in, countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain and even France would have much less pressure to consolidate their state finances. - The Euro is not just a currency - it is a step towards European integration. With Russia biting of parts in the East, we cannot compensate to be set back this much. And last but not least: I use this currency to pay my rent, do not fuck it up!

aikah 11y ago

First , you can just kick a country out of the EU, that's impossible, once they are in they are in forever. Second if somehow you did this it would be the end of the EU politically speaking. It's already dead anyway since the Greek crisis has proven there is no real solidarity between EU states (and no,bailing out banks is no solidarity).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]