15 ms·

Greece to Default on $1.73B IMF Payment

97 points by tormeh 11y ago

mitkok 11y ago
Another article behind paywall, thanks very much for submitting. I hope you got paid for the link.
- dalke 11y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9795718#up_9796231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9795718#up_9796231 : "we don't ban paywalled sites [because] (a) there are standard workarounds for most paywalls, and (b) banning the WSJ, NYT, New Yorker, Economist, etc. would diminish the quality of HN."
  - mitkok 11y ago
    "(b) banning the WSJ, NYT, New Yorker, Economist, etc. would diminish the quality of HN." By diminish the quality of HN means "they will stop paying us", yeah sure.
    - saryant 11y ago
      Yeah, HN is surely a huge source of traffic for the WSJ...
      - easytiger 11y ago
        More likely they don't want to upset them
        dang 11y ago
        It is my pleasure to confirm that not upsetting the Wall Street Journal appears nowhere on HN's list of priorities. Complaints about paywalled submissions have become so repetitive lately that I think we're going to add this issue to the FAQ and declare it off-topic in the threads. It's fine to suggest an equally good article that isn't paywalled; if it really is equally good, we'll happily swap the URL. It's also fine to ask or share with other users how to read an article. But it's not fine for dozens of threads to bog down with the same generic complaints when this issue has been decided.
        easytiger 11y ago
        > But it's not fine for dozens of threads to bog down with the same generic complaints when this issue has been decided. I guess one forgets this isn't a community by a community
    - dalke 11y ago
      As an observation, in the last few weeks are links to paywalled Science articles, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9773173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9773173 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661641 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661641 , and Nature journals, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661148 and http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys3366.html http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys... . Are you against those links for the same worry that those journals are paying HN and/or submitters for making the link?
  - redwood 11y ago
    This is News Corp now.
  - cpncrunch 11y ago
    Usually there are other sources for these stories on non-paywalled site. I'm curious as to whether the HN users who upvote these stories actually pay WSJ for access.
    - dalke 11y ago
      "...actually pay WSJ for access" - or use the Google search technique to get access, which I just verified works for me. (That is, copy&paste the headline into a Google search and follow the first link to the unrestricted article.)
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        I'm well aware you can use google to get around it. However I think it's hypocritical for people here to upvote WSJ instead of ad-supported news sites, then post comments saying things like "would you prefer to have adverts?" and "how are journalists supposed to make a living?" if they are actually using google to avoid paying for those services themselves.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Yep, it takes two seconds to get around these paywalls and should be an easy task for anyone who is good with computers, which ought to cover the entire demographic of this site.
        cpncrunch 11y ago
        Of course I'm aware of that, it's the reasons behind why people are posting WSJ links rather than the likes of techcrunch that I'm curious about (see my comment above).
        mikeash 11y ago
        You said upvote. I can see being curious about the people who actually post them, and I'd wonder the same thing myself.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-set-to-default-on-173-billion-payment-2015-06-30 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-set-to-default-on-17... Basically says the same
- anonymoushn 11y ago
  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Feuropean-union-prepares-for-potential-fallout-from-greek-bank-shutdown-1435573213&ei=YKWSVZj7C5CDoQS84JWABQ&usg=AFQjCNGOCWRqIcdvWJMb49Sr4fTqLtrAAg&sig2=HC1Vo6M__fMMMPFIx8M37g&bvm=bv.96783405,d.cGU https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
  - phragg 11y ago
    but, how?
    - ablation 11y ago
      Results to paywalled sites served through Google News tend to be un-paywalled even on articles that are usually locked down. I can't say for certain this is the case for all, but it certainly is for the FT.
    - Elhana 11y ago
      They remove paywall when visitor comes from google search results, so if you want to read something - just put URL into google search and you get to read it for free. Otherwise they either won't get indexed at all or breach google policy that google bot should see same content as the user coming from search results.
asanagi 11y ago
Pay your debts, Greece.
Shivetya 11y ago
Honestly Greece needs to default if only for their citizens to have to own up to the mess their politicians have made and continue to make. The EU has to cut them off simply because bending to Greece's demands pretty much will open Pandora's box. Alexis Tsipras and his government have accelerated Greece's decline with their rhetoric, driving bank money out which is reducing the money supply which constrains any recovery. They had to lock down the banks because their economy cannot simply exist on money the state has banked The EU was never meant to be a transfer union, if it headed that way all the rich nations would likely bail and current politicians would face political defeat. Close to home (US) Puerto Rico is having difficulties paying their bonds for similar reasons, believing that they could get bailed out just because of what they are.
- deciplex 11y ago
  > The EU was never meant to be a transfer union, if it headed that way all the rich nations would likely bail and current politicians would face political defeat. Is that why it's so easy for the rich over there to hide all their wealth in tax havens like e.g. Luxemburg? To avoid transferring any wealth to the country where they actually made it all, via taxation?
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  My pet theory is that Tsipras is pretty much a communist-lite (Greece is very far to the left politically) and is pivoting to move to state controlled most things/everything under the guise of 'socialism' and 'fighting the evil Germans/Brits/French who steal our money.' I can't see his rhetoric making any sense outside of an extremist power grab. He could be bankrolled by Russian and Chinese interests (both autocracies he looks up to - he has made several secretive visits to Moscow), sell off Greek lands to pay for bills, and pretty much become Cuba. Perhaps even exit NATO as Russia and China pressure him. The funny thing most Greeks would be on board with this. Or maybe he's crazy like a fox and was courting Russia and China to counter the EU as gambler brinkmanship, but if that was true, there would be a deal by now, not a referendum that will, most likely, remove Greece from the EU. As a Greek-American I'm always shocked at how extremist the people are there when I visit. They're not like Germans who take something of a middle of the road approach, at least by Euro standards. They're an entirely different beast and I think other EU members are only starting to notice. The EU taking on Greece is like the US making Cuba the 51st state. The culture and governmental divides are huge. It was a bad idea from the start. I suspect Greece is lost to the EU and somewhat to the West for quite some time. Greeks are prideful people and "OXI" is ingrained into their culture, good or bad.
gesman 11y ago
I use to watch the price of bitcoin and gold to judge the impact level of such news on the world's economy: https://markets.blockchain.info/ https://markets.blockchain.info/ Apparently not that of a big deal.
- aqme28 11y ago
  Bitcoin is not super affected because people are fleeing to the Euro.
  - eastbayjake 11y ago
    There was a spike in Bitcoin prices when Cyprus, another EU member state, imposed capital controls during a potential default and driving Bitcoin prices up 400%. Greece is following almost the exact same path, limiting bank withdrawals to €60 per day.
    - chinathrow 11y ago
      How would you transfer money into a bitcoin wallet when the withdrawals are that limited?
      - eastbayjake 11y ago
        It's very hard -- there's only one Bitcoin ATM in all of Greece and six businesses to spend it at -- but Bitcoin exchanges are reporting huge spikes in Greek usage: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/
- jorisvh 11y ago
  Also maybe the move was anticipated.
  - gesman 11y ago
    That's my take too and all risks were already estimated and priced in. Unfortunately that does not takes into account the risks to well being for the people of Greece.
laichzeit0 11y ago
What recourse do the creditors have when Greece defaults? Invade the country and physically reposes assets? How is this different from borrowing money from a bank and not paying, except being a country and all.
- doktrin 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  They can kick them out of the EU/Eurozone and implement tariffs that will pay off these debts. It'll take decades but its doable if the Greek economy doesn't completely collapse.
  - beat 11y ago
    And there's the rub... the best way to get the debt repaid is to help the Greek economy recover, but prioritizing debt repayment over economic recovery drives the economy even farther downhill. And turning Greece into an economic pariah state with tariffs and other punitive measures is definitely a step in that direction. How are they supposed to recover if they can't engage in free trade? They could pull a Cuba and create a completely introverted economy - poor, but independent. But if they're doing that, why the hell should they kowtow to the EU or anyone else?
  - sgift 11y ago
    No, they cannot. I have no idea where this lie started, but repeating it won't make it true: There is NO mechanism to kick Greece out of the EU/Eurozone and when the other governments try to do it the european courts will stop them.
    - cjensen 11y ago
      The EU Treaty has rules regarding government debt. Greece violated the treaty by running a bigger deficit than permitted. Additionally, the Treaty does not allow for default on debt. The EU courts will require repayment. Your suggestion that the EU courts will stop a breakup with a country which is in complete violation of EU law is optimistic.
netcan 11y ago
I've sort of turned around in my opinion o Greece. I started out by seeing this as the Greek Government being cynical, corrupt or incompetent and running public finances into a wall. I still think that's true. That happened and the greek government including the electorate are to blame. But that is not the main story here. The main story here is what happens when a government does go bust. Sovereign debt doesn't come with these kinds of strings attached. If your debtor can't repay, you don't get to run the country. I think there are two bigs aspects to this whole greek story. First, is that taking away national currency is taking away the ability to print and devalue your way out of trouble, which really increases the risk of government insolvency. Second (this is where I've kind of turned around), I do think Germany and the EU are in the wrong. First, is the very german/west european idea that instead of a contingency plan, you need to make sure nothing goes wrong. Regulations and controls. This may work for germany, but it will not work everywhere. Other EU governments will go bust in the future. It's inevitable. Third, banks run the world. Governments were already very cosy with banks. All the big markets and big fortunes go up and down with the slightest hint of bank health. Everyone is paranoid of banking issues causing wider collapse. Since the banking collapse, bank health has become completely equivalent to economic health. The economies are being nudged and designed to suit them. Central banks and finance ministries top priority is bank health. They are the favoured child. Backing up a little, Greece's no strings soveriegn debt was converted into EU, Germany & IMF debt with strings in the panic phase of the crisis. Private banks were granted immunity from their bad debts to Greece and the IMF/EU is now acting like a leg-breaker loan shark demanding impossible payments or else. They are tying EU membership to repayment. That is not fair. The EU needs a bankruptcy procedure. A way for insolvency to be resolved and a way for bad loans to absorb their due share. Greece's government did run the country into insolvency. But equally, these banks did a bad job valuing risk and making loans. Who says sovereign bonds need to be risk free anyway?
- enraged_camel 11y ago
  >>First, is that taking away national currency is taking away the ability to print and devalue your way out of trouble, which really increases the risk of government insolvency. You basically summarized why the entire concept of Euro has been fundamentally flawed to begin with.
lucaspiller 11y ago
For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, there is a crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo to pay-off the debt. If everyone in Europe contributed, it would be around €3 each. The campaign has raised over €150,000 today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund/x/1873961 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund/x/1873...
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- miralabs 11y ago
  that is definitely some sort of trolling.
- aquark 11y ago
  It's a nice thought ... but €3 each covers the immediate payment needed. Total Greek debt is €323 B [1] and there are 503 million inhabitants in the EU, making 'pay-off the debt' more like €642 per inhabitant For context total EU sovereign debt [2] is €24,415 per inhabitant [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886 [2] http://www.eudebtclock.org/ http://www.eudebtclock.org/
  - mikeash 11y ago
    That really puts the scale of the problem in a new perspective for me. That's $715 (at the current exchange rate) for every person on the continent just for the debt of one tiny little corner of it.
- Trufa 11y ago
  Oh man, would this be even possible? That is a lot of money. I'm gonna pitch in but this needs some serious traction. Wouldn't it be amazing though? Imagine what a breakthrough it would be, this sort of worldwide collaboration, it would be very empowering to common people. I'm not sure why I'm getting so down-voted, maybe a little bit naive, but I thought I made clear I know it's a long shot, that much is clear, but given that, what isn't true about the rest of my statement?
- 11y ago
toolsadmin 11y ago
All this spending was basically German and French money recycling through Greece, where previous German loans were paid with new ones. Default like Argentina and Iceland did, and start of a fresh slate, keeping this bloodsucking parasite called Brussels on the body of Greece is a travesty - 5 years of ruined lives already.
foliveira 11y ago
Isn't the correct term entering into arrears instead of default? Doesn't the Greek government have a couple of weeks to regularise their debts before going into default? Also someone needs to keep tabs on this: http://isgreeceindefaultyet.com/ http://isgreeceindefaultyet.com/
- hessenwolf 11y ago
  Under discussion. "June 30, 2015 5:05 am Greece’s IMF payment: When is a default not a default?" http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3344581e-1eda-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3eYkB6WL3 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3344581e-1eda-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf...
sp4ke 11y ago
I need to register to read this article, can we please stop sharing locked out content on the internet. Thank you
- tummybug 11y ago
  Search for the link in google and click the result for it.
hackuser 11y ago
A few considerations: 1) Many arguments stem from assinging moral responsibility to the Greek people. The people who will suffer most are and will be the poor in Greece, including those on fixed incomes such as pensioners. Yet these are the people with the least power over what their government does. Drive through a poor neighborhood in your town; how responsible are those people for their national government's economic policies? It's cruel and frankly evil to impose the costs on them. 2) Making people suffer is not nearly enough of a response. Nor is saying 'their suffering is not our problem'. Those are non-responses and, I think, moral failure. The people of Germany may need other Europeans' help some day -- they got it after WWII and, for example, they expect their NATO allies to defend them, with the U.S. bearing most of the burden -- they may want to set a better precedent. EDIT: "You’ll never guess which hardline euro zone country has had its debts repeatedly forgiven"[1] 3) This is a leadership failure of the entire EU. There is no way something this critical should have gotten to this point. Part of it, I think, is the failure of EU leaders to stand up for the EU's importance. The nationalistic and xenophobic right-wing, along with Ayn Randian economic policies, are ascendent and nobody is challenging them. Thus the public sees little reason to protect the EU or those suffering in Greece. [1] http://qz.com/441187/youll-never-guess-which-hardline-euro-zone-country-has-had-its-debts-repeatedly-forgiven/ http://qz.com/441187/youll-never-guess-which-hardline-euro-z...

97 points by tormeh 11y ago

mitkok 11y ago

Another article behind paywall, thanks very much for submitting. I hope you got paid for the link.

dalke 11y ago
See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9795718#up_9796231 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9795718#up_9796231 : "we don't ban paywalled sites [because] (a) there are standard workarounds for most paywalls, and (b) banning the WSJ, NYT, New Yorker, Economist, etc. would diminish the quality of HN."
- mitkok 11y ago
  "(b) banning the WSJ, NYT, New Yorker, Economist, etc. would diminish the quality of HN." By diminish the quality of HN means "they will stop paying us", yeah sure.
  - saryant 11y ago
    Yeah, HN is surely a huge source of traffic for the WSJ...
    - easytiger 11y ago
      More likely they don't want to upset them
      - dang 11y ago
        It is my pleasure to confirm that not upsetting the Wall Street Journal appears nowhere on HN's list of priorities. Complaints about paywalled submissions have become so repetitive lately that I think we're going to add this issue to the FAQ and declare it off-topic in the threads. It's fine to suggest an equally good article that isn't paywalled; if it really is equally good, we'll happily swap the URL. It's also fine to ask or share with other users how to read an article. But it's not fine for dozens of threads to bog down with the same generic complaints when this issue has been decided.
        easytiger 11y ago
        > But it's not fine for dozens of threads to bog down with the same generic complaints when this issue has been decided. I guess one forgets this isn't a community by a community
  - dalke 11y ago
    As an observation, in the last few weeks are links to paywalled Science articles, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9773173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9773173 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661641 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661641 , and Nature journals, like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9661148 and http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys3366.html http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nphys... . Are you against those links for the same worry that those journals are paying HN and/or submitters for making the link?
- redwood 11y ago
  This is News Corp now.
- cpncrunch 11y ago
  Usually there are other sources for these stories on non-paywalled site. I'm curious as to whether the HN users who upvote these stories actually pay WSJ for access.
  - dalke 11y ago
    "...actually pay WSJ for access" - or use the Google search technique to get access, which I just verified works for me. (That is, copy&paste the headline into a Google search and follow the first link to the unrestricted article.)
    - cpncrunch 11y ago
      I'm well aware you can use google to get around it. However I think it's hypocritical for people here to upvote WSJ instead of ad-supported news sites, then post comments saying things like "would you prefer to have adverts?" and "how are journalists supposed to make a living?" if they are actually using google to avoid paying for those services themselves.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Yep, it takes two seconds to get around these paywalls and should be an easy task for anyone who is good with computers, which ought to cover the entire demographic of this site.
      - cpncrunch 11y ago
        Of course I'm aware of that, it's the reasons behind why people are posting WSJ links rather than the likes of techcrunch that I'm curious about (see my comment above).
        mikeash 11y ago
        You said upvote. I can see being curious about the people who actually post them, and I'd wonder the same thing myself.
Shivetya 11y ago
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-set-to-default-on-173-billion-payment-2015-06-30 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-set-to-default-on-17... Basically says the same
anonymoushn 11y ago
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Feuropean-union-prepares-for-potential-fallout-from-greek-bank-shutdown-1435573213&ei=YKWSVZj7C5CDoQS84JWABQ&usg=AFQjCNGOCWRqIcdvWJMb49Sr4fTqLtrAAg&sig2=HC1Vo6M__fMMMPFIx8M37g&bvm=bv.96783405,d.cGU https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
- phragg 11y ago
  but, how?
  - ablation 11y ago
    Results to paywalled sites served through Google News tend to be un-paywalled even on articles that are usually locked down. I can't say for certain this is the case for all, but it certainly is for the FT.
  - Elhana 11y ago
    They remove paywall when visitor comes from google search results, so if you want to read something - just put URL into google search and you get to read it for free. Otherwise they either won't get indexed at all or breach google policy that google bot should see same content as the user coming from search results.

asanagi 11y ago

Pay your debts, Greece.

Shivetya 11y ago

Honestly Greece needs to default if only for their citizens to have to own up to the mess their politicians have made and continue to make. The EU has to cut them off simply because bending to Greece's demands pretty much will open Pandora's box. Alexis Tsipras and his government have accelerated Greece's decline with their rhetoric, driving bank money out which is reducing the money supply which constrains any recovery. They had to lock down the banks because their economy cannot simply exist on money the state has banked The EU was never meant to be a transfer union, if it headed that way all the rich nations would likely bail and current politicians would face political defeat. Close to home (US) Puerto Rico is having difficulties paying their bonds for similar reasons, believing that they could get bailed out just because of what they are.

deciplex 11y ago
> The EU was never meant to be a transfer union, if it headed that way all the rich nations would likely bail and current politicians would face political defeat. Is that why it's so easy for the rich over there to hide all their wealth in tax havens like e.g. Luxemburg? To avoid transferring any wealth to the country where they actually made it all, via taxation?
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
My pet theory is that Tsipras is pretty much a communist-lite (Greece is very far to the left politically) and is pivoting to move to state controlled most things/everything under the guise of 'socialism' and 'fighting the evil Germans/Brits/French who steal our money.' I can't see his rhetoric making any sense outside of an extremist power grab. He could be bankrolled by Russian and Chinese interests (both autocracies he looks up to - he has made several secretive visits to Moscow), sell off Greek lands to pay for bills, and pretty much become Cuba. Perhaps even exit NATO as Russia and China pressure him. The funny thing most Greeks would be on board with this. Or maybe he's crazy like a fox and was courting Russia and China to counter the EU as gambler brinkmanship, but if that was true, there would be a deal by now, not a referendum that will, most likely, remove Greece from the EU. As a Greek-American I'm always shocked at how extremist the people are there when I visit. They're not like Germans who take something of a middle of the road approach, at least by Euro standards. They're an entirely different beast and I think other EU members are only starting to notice. The EU taking on Greece is like the US making Cuba the 51st state. The culture and governmental divides are huge. It was a bad idea from the start. I suspect Greece is lost to the EU and somewhat to the West for quite some time. Greeks are prideful people and "OXI" is ingrained into their culture, good or bad.

gesman 11y ago

I use to watch the price of bitcoin and gold to judge the impact level of such news on the world's economy: https://markets.blockchain.info/ https://markets.blockchain.info/ Apparently not that of a big deal.

aqme28 11y ago
Bitcoin is not super affected because people are fleeing to the Euro.
- eastbayjake 11y ago
  There was a spike in Bitcoin prices when Cyprus, another EU member state, imposed capital controls during a potential default and driving Bitcoin prices up 400%. Greece is following almost the exact same path, limiting bank withdrawals to €60 per day.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    How would you transfer money into a bitcoin wallet when the withdrawals are that limited?
    - eastbayjake 11y ago
      It's very hard -- there's only one Bitcoin ATM in all of Greece and six businesses to spend it at -- but Bitcoin exchanges are reporting huge spikes in Greek usage: http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/ http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/29/technology/greece-bitcoin/
jorisvh 11y ago
Also maybe the move was anticipated.
- gesman 11y ago
  That's my take too and all risks were already estimated and priced in. Unfortunately that does not takes into account the risks to well being for the people of Greece.

laichzeit0 11y ago

What recourse do the creditors have when Greece defaults? Invade the country and physically reposes assets? How is this different from borrowing money from a bank and not paying, except being a country and all.

doktrin 11y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_default
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
They can kick them out of the EU/Eurozone and implement tariffs that will pay off these debts. It'll take decades but its doable if the Greek economy doesn't completely collapse.
- beat 11y ago
  And there's the rub... the best way to get the debt repaid is to help the Greek economy recover, but prioritizing debt repayment over economic recovery drives the economy even farther downhill. And turning Greece into an economic pariah state with tariffs and other punitive measures is definitely a step in that direction. How are they supposed to recover if they can't engage in free trade? They could pull a Cuba and create a completely introverted economy - poor, but independent. But if they're doing that, why the hell should they kowtow to the EU or anyone else?
- sgift 11y ago
  No, they cannot. I have no idea where this lie started, but repeating it won't make it true: There is NO mechanism to kick Greece out of the EU/Eurozone and when the other governments try to do it the european courts will stop them.
  - cjensen 11y ago
    The EU Treaty has rules regarding government debt. Greece violated the treaty by running a bigger deficit than permitted. Additionally, the Treaty does not allow for default on debt. The EU courts will require repayment. Your suggestion that the EU courts will stop a breakup with a country which is in complete violation of EU law is optimistic.

netcan 11y ago

I've sort of turned around in my opinion o Greece. I started out by seeing this as the Greek Government being cynical, corrupt or incompetent and running public finances into a wall. I still think that's true. That happened and the greek government including the electorate are to blame. But that is not the main story here. The main story here is what happens when a government does go bust. Sovereign debt doesn't come with these kinds of strings attached. If your debtor can't repay, you don't get to run the country. I think there are two bigs aspects to this whole greek story. First, is that taking away national currency is taking away the ability to print and devalue your way out of trouble, which really increases the risk of government insolvency. Second (this is where I've kind of turned around), I do think Germany and the EU are in the wrong. First, is the very german/west european idea that instead of a contingency plan, you need to make sure nothing goes wrong. Regulations and controls. This may work for germany, but it will not work everywhere. Other EU governments will go bust in the future. It's inevitable. Third, banks run the world. Governments were already very cosy with banks. All the big markets and big fortunes go up and down with the slightest hint of bank health. Everyone is paranoid of banking issues causing wider collapse. Since the banking collapse, bank health has become completely equivalent to economic health. The economies are being nudged and designed to suit them. Central banks and finance ministries top priority is bank health. They are the favoured child. Backing up a little, Greece's no strings soveriegn debt was converted into EU, Germany & IMF debt with strings in the panic phase of the crisis. Private banks were granted immunity from their bad debts to Greece and the IMF/EU is now acting like a leg-breaker loan shark demanding impossible payments or else. They are tying EU membership to repayment. That is not fair. The EU needs a bankruptcy procedure. A way for insolvency to be resolved and a way for bad loans to absorb their due share. Greece's government did run the country into insolvency. But equally, these banks did a bad job valuing risk and making loans. Who says sovereign bonds need to be risk free anyway?

enraged_camel 11y ago
>>First, is that taking away national currency is taking away the ability to print and devalue your way out of trouble, which really increases the risk of government insolvency. You basically summarized why the entire concept of Euro has been fundamentally flawed to begin with.

lucaspiller 11y ago

For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, there is a crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo to pay-off the debt. If everyone in Europe contributed, it would be around €3 each. The campaign has raised over €150,000 today: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund/x/1873961 https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund/x/1873...

deleted 11y ago
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miralabs 11y ago
that is definitely some sort of trolling.
aquark 11y ago
It's a nice thought ... but €3 each covers the immediate payment needed. Total Greek debt is €323 B [1] and there are 503 million inhabitants in the EU, making 'pay-off the debt' more like €642 per inhabitant For context total EU sovereign debt [2] is €24,415 per inhabitant [1] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33325886 [2] http://www.eudebtclock.org/ http://www.eudebtclock.org/
- mikeash 11y ago
  That really puts the scale of the problem in a new perspective for me. That's $715 (at the current exchange rate) for every person on the continent just for the debt of one tiny little corner of it.
Trufa 11y ago
Oh man, would this be even possible? That is a lot of money. I'm gonna pitch in but this needs some serious traction. Wouldn't it be amazing though? Imagine what a breakthrough it would be, this sort of worldwide collaboration, it would be very empowering to common people. I'm not sure why I'm getting so down-voted, maybe a little bit naive, but I thought I made clear I know it's a long shot, that much is clear, but given that, what isn't true about the rest of my statement?
11y ago

toolsadmin 11y ago

All this spending was basically German and French money recycling through Greece, where previous German loans were paid with new ones. Default like Argentina and Iceland did, and start of a fresh slate, keeping this bloodsucking parasite called Brussels on the body of Greece is a travesty - 5 years of ruined lives already.

foliveira 11y ago

Isn't the correct term entering into arrears instead of default? Doesn't the Greek government have a couple of weeks to regularise their debts before going into default? Also someone needs to keep tabs on this: http://isgreeceindefaultyet.com/ http://isgreeceindefaultyet.com/

hessenwolf 11y ago
Under discussion. "June 30, 2015 5:05 am Greece’s IMF payment: When is a default not a default?" http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3344581e-1eda-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf79.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3eYkB6WL3 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3344581e-1eda-11e5-aa5a-398b2169cf...

sp4ke 11y ago

I need to register to read this article, can we please stop sharing locked out content on the internet. Thank you

tummybug 11y ago
Search for the link in google and click the result for it.

hackuser 11y ago

A few considerations: 1) Many arguments stem from assinging moral responsibility to the Greek people. The people who will suffer most are and will be the poor in Greece, including those on fixed incomes such as pensioners. Yet these are the people with the least power over what their government does. Drive through a poor neighborhood in your town; how responsible are those people for their national government's economic policies? It's cruel and frankly evil to impose the costs on them. 2) Making people suffer is not nearly enough of a response. Nor is saying 'their suffering is not our problem'. Those are non-responses and, I think, moral failure. The people of Germany may need other Europeans' help some day -- they got it after WWII and, for example, they expect their NATO allies to defend them, with the U.S. bearing most of the burden -- they may want to set a better precedent. EDIT: "You’ll never guess which hardline euro zone country has had its debts repeatedly forgiven"[1] 3) This is a leadership failure of the entire EU. There is no way something this critical should have gotten to this point. Part of it, I think, is the failure of EU leaders to stand up for the EU's importance. The nationalistic and xenophobic right-wing, along with Ayn Randian economic policies, are ascendent and nobody is challenging them. Thus the public sees little reason to protect the EU or those suffering in Greece. [1] http://qz.com/441187/youll-never-guess-which-hardline-euro-zone-country-has-had-its-debts-repeatedly-forgiven/ http://qz.com/441187/youll-never-guess-which-hardline-euro-z...