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"Please explain how people were able to live before debt was defined as money? Because there was a before, and people lived by then." Not really. Money histor

"Please explain how people were able to live before debt was defined as money? Because there was a before, and people lived by then." Not really. Money historically was created for tallying and clearing credit accounts. It was debt that led to exchange. This has been explored pretty heavily in recent books from Felix Martin, Graeber, Weatherford, etc. Of course money is more than debt -- but it is intrinsically linked. Hard money is something of a delusion.

marcosdumay 11y ago
There were people before there was money, and there wasn't a monetary paradox that killed them all. Also, people did use hard money at the past. No we should not go back there, but it did exist, and people didn't starve because of that.
- parasubvert 11y ago
  "There were people before there was money, and there wasn't a monetary paradox that killed them all." I agree, of course. Most exchange was gift or reciprocity-oriented. I'm just saying that money emerged for a variety of reasons, one of which (probably the biggest) was to clear accounts as communities grew to a scale where reciprocity can't scale. Barter as Adam Smith describes it never really existed in ancient societies. "Also, people did use hard money at the past. No we should not go back there, but it did exist..." Again, also agree. ", and people didn't starve because of that." But they did! Numerous economic crises, whether depressions or hyperinflation can be traced through ancient times - the 3rd century fall of the Roman empire (hyperinflation), the various Italian banking crises in the 14th and 15th centuries, Tulip mania, panics and depressions through the 1700s and 1800s, leading to the failure of the Gold standard (the ultimate hard money backstop) in the Great Depression.... Going back to your first response, "If you want to claim that monetary phenomena cause real problems, well, you must claim a link between them", but that's what Keynes (and others) spent a lot of time actually doing in the 1920-40's. The world got complicated and the gold standard broke down. The rise of shadow banking makes things even more complicated in this age.

marcosdumay 11y ago

There were people before there was money, and there wasn't a monetary paradox that killed them all. Also, people did use hard money at the past. No we should not go back there, but it did exist, and people didn't starve because of that.

parasubvert 11y ago
"There were people before there was money, and there wasn't a monetary paradox that killed them all." I agree, of course. Most exchange was gift or reciprocity-oriented. I'm just saying that money emerged for a variety of reasons, one of which (probably the biggest) was to clear accounts as communities grew to a scale where reciprocity can't scale. Barter as Adam Smith describes it never really existed in ancient societies. "Also, people did use hard money at the past. No we should not go back there, but it did exist..." Again, also agree. ", and people didn't starve because of that." But they did! Numerous economic crises, whether depressions or hyperinflation can be traced through ancient times - the 3rd century fall of the Roman empire (hyperinflation), the various Italian banking crises in the 14th and 15th centuries, Tulip mania, panics and depressions through the 1700s and 1800s, leading to the failure of the Gold standard (the ultimate hard money backstop) in the Great Depression.... Going back to your first response, "If you want to claim that monetary phenomena cause real problems, well, you must claim a link between them", but that's what Keynes (and others) spent a lot of time actually doing in the 1920-40's. The world got complicated and the gold standard broke down. The rise of shadow banking makes things even more complicated in this age.