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I've thought for a long time that the most likely corruption we'd see around the surveillance issue is industrial espionage. It'd be a great way for the NSA to

by api 11y ago

I've thought for a long time that the most likely corruption we'd see around the surveillance issue is industrial espionage. It'd be a great way for the NSA to give an unfair advantage to state-linked American corporations, or for independent actors within NSA to line their pockets. A related issue would be insider trading. I mean, with a source of data like that you could basically 'jackpot' stock markets and extract arbitrary amounts of money from the global economy. Members of Congress are immune from prosecution for insider trading.

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago
Actually this has been SOP for US corps and the US gov since the days of the telegraph - literally.
- SixSigma 11y ago
  SOP Source of Pride
  - azdle 11y ago
    In this case, I read that as "Standard Operating Procedure".
    - aquadrop 11y ago
      And I read it as "Source Of Profit", let's wait and see who's right :)
oh_sigh 11y ago
> It'd be a great way for the NSA to give an unfair advantage to state-linked American corporations, or for independent actors within NSA to line their pockets. Funny, because this is exactly the reason that the NSA is spying on these French companies(to determine if they are illegally affecting the US via hidden state subsidies, breaking of international regulations, etc).
- api 11y ago
  The two are not mutually exclusive. That could well be the official above-board reason. I was simply pointing out the absolutely immense opportunity for unchecked corruption that's inherent in programs like this. They're classified, therefore they get little to no external oversight. Corruption need not be top-down. If Snowden could walk out with so much data without discovery, what could a more 'entrepreneurial' insider do?
nota_bene 11y ago
> A related issue would be insider trading. To be honest, all of the data hoovers such as Google, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Co. have a pretty obvious insider knowledge-like cash machine: simply look into a few correlations between what data their users (as signed in users or as involuntary shadow profiles) put into these companies' databases and the movements of the stock market. Then predict and cash out.
- mwerd 11y ago
  This is actually the case in at least one public example[1]. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission on Wednesday filed a lawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia against Bonan Huang and Nan Huang, saying the analysts used the nonpublic data to trade in the shares of consumer retail companies ahead of sales and earnings reports. The lawsuit said from November 2013 to January 2015, the two analysts, who had access to the data as fraud investigators, made hundreds, if not thousands, of keyword searches for sales data on at least 170 publicly traded companies. The SEC said the two employees were able to analyze the data to determine if a company's sales were increasing or decreasing on a periodic basis. [1]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/22/capital-one-fin-insidertrading-idUSL1N0V02ZY20150122 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/22/capital-one-fin-in...
a3n 11y ago
There is probably no spy agency in any developed country that can rival the reach, effectiveness and immediacy of the NSA. So this kind of industrial espionage is a huge unfair trade advantage, at least from the victim's point of view. I wonder how long it's going to be until Europe levies an NSA trade tax against US goods and services.
- wahsd 11y ago
  What really has not been highlighted to even remotely an adequate level is the huge damage to the trust and confidence in the USA as the stalwart and upstanding sentinel image that we have cultivated to exquisitely over decades now. If there had only been some really good alternatives for the global focus to orient itself by, the USA would have been side-lined and crushed economically by now due to the direct and deliberate self-sabotage by our intelligence community. Will we see the USA recover from all the damage, abuse, and devastation it has caused to its relationships and self-destruction it has wrecked upon itself? I don't know, but I can tell you that if the European Union rightfully moves against American companies as a justified threat to their national security, it will cost our economy billions. Facebook's market cap is currently $245 billion, how many billions do you think would be shaved off if the EU and / or other countries acted against that facade of USA global surveillance domination? How about Google? How about Cisco? Apple ... even though at least in terms of impression, I think Apple is playing a smart card by siding with encryption of their devices. Personally, though, I think the lies by the NSA to our own government and the revealed actions prove one thing, that you can't trust anything that comes from our government and you really can't trust anyone that is affiliated, either voluntarily or compulsory, and Apple has been working with the government and intel agencies. Can they be trusted? Are their efforts to secure and encrypt their devices really genuine or just lip service and smoke and mirrors? Who knows. The trust is permanently destroyed, really!
  - happyscrappy 11y ago
    We have been hearing this trope for years and Europe is more dependent upon the US than ever.
chmaynard 11y ago
> Members of Congress are immune from prosecution for insider trading. This is a strong claim. Are you referring to trading in global equity markets?
- mafuyu 11y ago
  There has been some controversy over the years regarding Congress and insider trading: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/07/congress-argues-cant-investigated-insider-trading/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/07/congress-argue... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/stock-act-change-insider-trading_n_3100115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/stock-act-change-in...

by api 11y ago

TheOtherHobbes 11y ago

Actually this has been SOP for US corps and the US gov since the days of the telegraph - literally.

SixSigma 11y ago
SOP Source of Pride
- azdle 11y ago
  In this case, I read that as "Standard Operating Procedure".
  - aquadrop 11y ago
    And I read it as "Source Of Profit", let's wait and see who's right :)

oh_sigh 11y ago

> It'd be a great way for the NSA to give an unfair advantage to state-linked American corporations, or for independent actors within NSA to line their pockets. Funny, because this is exactly the reason that the NSA is spying on these French companies(to determine if they are illegally affecting the US via hidden state subsidies, breaking of international regulations, etc).

api 11y ago
The two are not mutually exclusive. That could well be the official above-board reason. I was simply pointing out the absolutely immense opportunity for unchecked corruption that's inherent in programs like this. They're classified, therefore they get little to no external oversight. Corruption need not be top-down. If Snowden could walk out with so much data without discovery, what could a more 'entrepreneurial' insider do?

nota_bene 11y ago

> A related issue would be insider trading. To be honest, all of the data hoovers such as Google, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn and Co. have a pretty obvious insider knowledge-like cash machine: simply look into a few correlations between what data their users (as signed in users or as involuntary shadow profiles) put into these companies' databases and the movements of the stock market. Then predict and cash out.

mwerd 11y ago
This is actually the case in at least one public example[1]. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission on Wednesday filed a lawsuit in federal court in Philadelphia against Bonan Huang and Nan Huang, saying the analysts used the nonpublic data to trade in the shares of consumer retail companies ahead of sales and earnings reports. The lawsuit said from November 2013 to January 2015, the two analysts, who had access to the data as fraud investigators, made hundreds, if not thousands, of keyword searches for sales data on at least 170 publicly traded companies. The SEC said the two employees were able to analyze the data to determine if a company's sales were increasing or decreasing on a periodic basis. [1]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/22/capital-one-fin-insidertrading-idUSL1N0V02ZY20150122 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/22/capital-one-fin-in...

a3n 11y ago

There is probably no spy agency in any developed country that can rival the reach, effectiveness and immediacy of the NSA. So this kind of industrial espionage is a huge unfair trade advantage, at least from the victim's point of view. I wonder how long it's going to be until Europe levies an NSA trade tax against US goods and services.

wahsd 11y ago
What really has not been highlighted to even remotely an adequate level is the huge damage to the trust and confidence in the USA as the stalwart and upstanding sentinel image that we have cultivated to exquisitely over decades now. If there had only been some really good alternatives for the global focus to orient itself by, the USA would have been side-lined and crushed economically by now due to the direct and deliberate self-sabotage by our intelligence community. Will we see the USA recover from all the damage, abuse, and devastation it has caused to its relationships and self-destruction it has wrecked upon itself? I don't know, but I can tell you that if the European Union rightfully moves against American companies as a justified threat to their national security, it will cost our economy billions. Facebook's market cap is currently $245 billion, how many billions do you think would be shaved off if the EU and / or other countries acted against that facade of USA global surveillance domination? How about Google? How about Cisco? Apple ... even though at least in terms of impression, I think Apple is playing a smart card by siding with encryption of their devices. Personally, though, I think the lies by the NSA to our own government and the revealed actions prove one thing, that you can't trust anything that comes from our government and you really can't trust anyone that is affiliated, either voluntarily or compulsory, and Apple has been working with the government and intel agencies. Can they be trusted? Are their efforts to secure and encrypt their devices really genuine or just lip service and smoke and mirrors? Who knows. The trust is permanently destroyed, really!
- happyscrappy 11y ago
  We have been hearing this trope for years and Europe is more dependent upon the US than ever.

chmaynard 11y ago

> Members of Congress are immune from prosecution for insider trading. This is a strong claim. Are you referring to trading in global equity markets?

mafuyu 11y ago
There has been some controversy over the years regarding Congress and insider trading: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/07/congress-argues-cant-investigated-insider-trading/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/07/congress-argue... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/stock-act-change-insider-trading_n_3100115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/17/stock-act-change-in...