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I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for

I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for a very long time over. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-risks-in-exposing-chinas-forced-labor.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ris... or even http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-student-labor-1411572448 http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-st... This isn't a "well suck it up because at least you're getting paid /something/" issue. Chinese workers can still be beneficial to their country and the world while making a decent wage and without being abused.

adventured 11y ago
American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution. There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up manufacturing in China to begin with; those manufacturers would have kept that manufacturing domestically or sought out another cheaper source. The sole reason China boomed the last 20 years is that they had 250 million low-wage workers available and willing to do low-cost manufacturing. If we're talking exploitation, the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires that have gotten rich off of leveraging their own impoverished workers - they own all the factories, the real estate, et al. China's wealth inequality puts every other country to shame.
- feelslikefelt 11y ago
  I just don't understand how anyone could be OK with /anyone/ that takes part in this process. It's not okay for the "200 Chinese billionaires" to be profiting off of abusing others, just as it is not okay for Americans to be giving money to these people. There is a difference between being successful financially and being able to sleep well at night.
  - tormeh 11y ago
    Experience suggests that most people rising to riches don't have any troubles sleeping at night regardless of what they've done. Just world fallacy and all that.
  - hueving 11y ago
    If you use a computer, you're part of that process as well.
  - mjfl 11y ago
    It's like you didn't read his comment, there was no alternative. There would not be a factory, period, if they couldn't pay their workers at lower rates than Americans. It would not be financially feasible. It would lose money and not be able to buy raw materials and then close down and everyone would get paid $0. So when people say they are actually helping them by paying them more than $0 they are telling the truth. And by saying that you could never be part of that process, you are basically saying that you would be one to pay them $0, which is more harmful than the people that build factories.
  - berntb 11y ago
    This is one of the links which really changed my world view (Krugman): http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/1997/03/in_praise_of_cheap_labor.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... (Yes, I'm Hellbanned.)
  - chrischen 11y ago
    So you would rather the billions of Chinese regress just so you can sleep well at night? What is actually happening is good for them, and the majority of them will not side with you or even care how you sleep at night. There will always be casualties and exploitation of workers in China, but that's more due to corruption than it is to systematic underpayment of Chinese workers.
- CamperBob2 11y ago
  I tend to agree with you, but note that the opposing arguments aren't entirely invalid. Think of how many Africans were better off as slaves in the antebellum South than living as free men and women back home. Did that justify slavery?
  - chrischen 11y ago
    There's a fundamental difference since the slaves didn't choose to be slaves, even if better off. The Chinese factory workers are choosing from the options provided. From their perspective they've been given a better option. From a western first world perspective, people here can't seem to relate to how $3/hr could possibly be a better option, but it is. Over here we have the benefit of minimum wage, welfare, higher standard of living, etc. Unfortunately it is a very egocentric viewpoint to not think of this from the perspective of an actual factory worker.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. American business is a significant reason China was so poor to start with. To understand China, I recommend reading what is meant by the 'century of humiliation'. > There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. They can pay less than American-level wages, and yet still pay a living wage and provide safe, reasonable working conditions. > the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires That someone else does wrong doesn't justify doing it yourself. Otherwise, everyone's standard is whatever the worst do.

adventured 11y ago

American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution. There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up manufacturing in China to begin with; those manufacturers would have kept that manufacturing domestically or sought out another cheaper source. The sole reason China boomed the last 20 years is that they had 250 million low-wage workers available and willing to do low-cost manufacturing. If we're talking exploitation, the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires that have gotten rich off of leveraging their own impoverished workers - they own all the factories, the real estate, et al. China's wealth inequality puts every other country to shame.

feelslikefelt 11y ago
I just don't understand how anyone could be OK with /anyone/ that takes part in this process. It's not okay for the "200 Chinese billionaires" to be profiting off of abusing others, just as it is not okay for Americans to be giving money to these people. There is a difference between being successful financially and being able to sleep well at night.
- tormeh 11y ago
  Experience suggests that most people rising to riches don't have any troubles sleeping at night regardless of what they've done. Just world fallacy and all that.
- hueving 11y ago
  If you use a computer, you're part of that process as well.
- mjfl 11y ago
  It's like you didn't read his comment, there was no alternative. There would not be a factory, period, if they couldn't pay their workers at lower rates than Americans. It would not be financially feasible. It would lose money and not be able to buy raw materials and then close down and everyone would get paid $0. So when people say they are actually helping them by paying them more than $0 they are telling the truth. And by saying that you could never be part of that process, you are basically saying that you would be one to pay them $0, which is more harmful than the people that build factories.
- berntb 11y ago
  This is one of the links which really changed my world view (Krugman): http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/1997/03/in_praise_of_cheap_labor.html http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/19... (Yes, I'm Hellbanned.)
- chrischen 11y ago
  So you would rather the billions of Chinese regress just so you can sleep well at night? What is actually happening is good for them, and the majority of them will not side with you or even care how you sleep at night. There will always be casualties and exploitation of workers in China, but that's more due to corruption than it is to systematic underpayment of Chinese workers.
CamperBob2 11y ago
I tend to agree with you, but note that the opposing arguments aren't entirely invalid. Think of how many Africans were better off as slaves in the antebellum South than living as free men and women back home. Did that justify slavery?
- chrischen 11y ago
  There's a fundamental difference since the slaves didn't choose to be slaves, even if better off. The Chinese factory workers are choosing from the options provided. From their perspective they've been given a better option. From a western first world perspective, people here can't seem to relate to how $3/hr could possibly be a better option, but it is. Over here we have the benefit of minimum wage, welfare, higher standard of living, etc. Unfortunately it is a very egocentric viewpoint to not think of this from the perspective of an actual factory worker.
hackuser 11y ago
> American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. American business is a significant reason China was so poor to start with. To understand China, I recommend reading what is meant by the 'century of humiliation'. > There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. They can pay less than American-level wages, and yet still pay a living wage and provide safe, reasonable working conditions. > the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires That someone else does wrong doesn't justify doing it yourself. Otherwise, everyone's standard is whatever the worst do.