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What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizi

What are you exactly suggesting everyone do? He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs. You're not offering any constructive feedback while criticizing from your pedestal of inaction. I assume you used a throwaway because you didn't want to attribute that to your personal identity. Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization, granted at the detriment of American jobs. However it forced American jobs to be more information focused. And if you're Chinese you should understand that. If you're American you can be proud you helped lift a country from the third world into the second.

chinathrow 11y ago
I am neither US nor chinese but I know that 3$/h is not a rate I wish anyone these days. Anywhere. Simple, eh?
- mjfl 11y ago
  China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? edit: This is an honest question.
  - Gigablah 11y ago
    Describing China as "communist" is like describing the US as a "democracy".
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? They are not actually communist; they are an authoritarian state controlling a capitalist economy. They started down that path in the late 1970s under Deng Xiaopeng. Before that, the state did a very poor job caring for its citizens. Millions died of starvation, persecution, and other ills. Look up the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, two government programs, as examples. After that, probably never in the history of humanity have so many in a time and place escaped poverty as those who have in China. However, the country is so large that there are still many that are very poor.
- johndevor 11y ago
  You're not answering the question. What would you have him do?
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  No, it's not simple at all. You might not wish that anyone make $3 an hour, but neither do you have the ability to provide everyone in the world with jobs that pay more than $3 an hour. The argument from classical economics is not that low wages are good in themselves, but that the best system is where wages are set by the market, and wealth redistribution is done by the government and private charity.
- jaredhansen 11y ago
  Hey, while we're wishing, for my part I wish that everyone made $1B/hr! (After accounting for inflationary effects, of course.) Private jets for everyone! But back in real life, while $3/hr may not be a lot compared to what some folks make, it's $3/hr more than someone making $0/hr makes, and it's triple what someone making $1/hr makes, and indeed a full 50% raise for anyone making $2/hr. If I could wave a wand and give everyone who currently makes 0, 1 or 2/hr the skill set and the opportunity to suddenly make $3/hr, I'd be happy to do it. And the billions of people (hundreds of millions maybe?) who suddenly got (in their terms) a huge raise would be pretty happy about it too.
  - hifromsz 11y ago
    I'm not sure you would be as quick to sarcasm if you spent some time in Chinese factories. It's a though life, even in the good ones. As the purchaser you have a lot of power over the process, not just at one factory, but in which factory you choose. To me that also means you have a responsibility. The least anyone working with Chinese companies should do, is to go and look at the factories.
    - jblow 11y ago
      Yes, it's a tough life, but people actually pick that life because other options are tougher (for example being a rural farmer somewhere). It is true that we should care about conditions in factories such as these and work to improve them. It's also true that if you insisted that Chinese workers get paid what American workers would, there would have been almost no factories and the entire country would still be in desolate poverty. Yes if there were no factories then probably the environment would be in a better condition. It's a very complex situation. Just picking one angle to it and insisting that angle holds the whole truth does not help anyone.
      - hifromsz 11y ago
        "It's a very complex situation" Unfortunately that wasn't represented in the rest of your comment. That people have much of a choice in what is essentially an industrial revolution is quite far fetched, so is the notion that factory work is easier than farming. I'm also not sure what American salaries has do to with my comment at all. I'm purely stating that people should have some respect for what many Chinese are going through without all or nothing BS arguments. China is much more dynamic than people are used to in the west. The have a much wider range of offerings. If you don't demand anything you're going to get the lowest one. To the disadvantage of yourself and the people doing the job.
feelslikefelt 11y ago
I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for a very long time over. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-risks-in-exposing-chinas-forced-labor.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ris... or even http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-student-labor-1411572448 http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-st... This isn't a "well suck it up because at least you're getting paid /something/" issue. Chinese workers can still be beneficial to their country and the world while making a decent wage and without being abused.
- adventured 11y ago
  American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution. There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up manufacturing in China to begin with; those manufacturers would have kept that manufacturing domestically or sought out another cheaper source. The sole reason China boomed the last 20 years is that they had 250 million low-wage workers available and willing to do low-cost manufacturing. If we're talking exploitation, the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires that have gotten rich off of leveraging their own impoverished workers - they own all the factories, the real estate, et al. China's wealth inequality puts every other country to shame.
  - feelslikefelt 11y ago
    I just don't understand how anyone could be OK with /anyone/ that takes part in this process. It's not okay for the "200 Chinese billionaires" to be profiting off of abusing others, just as it is not okay for Americans to be giving money to these people. There is a difference between being successful financially and being able to sleep well at night.
    - 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
s73v3r 11y ago
"He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs." I've always found that to be the absolute shittiest of rebuttals, given by those who have absolutely no point whatsoever. This person is not "giving" anyone a job; they are not being seeing a group of people and saying, "Hmmm, they look like they could use some work. I will create some and give it to them." No. This person needed some work done, and they were offering work. That's it. The person is not a "job creator"; those things don't exist. "If you're American you can be proud you helped lift a country from the third world into the second." And do we get to be proud of the complete and utter skull fucking the Chinese environment has taken as a result of that?
- jblow 11y ago
  If you ever run a company you'll know that job creators exist. I had a bunch of money. I could have kept it locked in a box somewhere. Instead I decided to pay a bunch of people to help make something cool. Yes, that's a transaction, but for my part, I didn't have to engage in it. (In fact some days I kind of regret it, given all the garbage one has to put up with when running a company.) I could have kept the money locked in a box and felt happy that I feel rich. Or something.
  - facetube 11y ago
    Or, to spin it just as hard the other way: a bunch of people gave up half of their waking hours for years in order to help make your something-cool business successful, and accepted your money in exchange for that assistance. They could have stayed home or done something else.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    "If you ever run a company you'll know that job creators exist." No they don't. There are people who want work done, and people who provide that work. That's it. You're not "creating jobs" simply because you feel like you want to create jobs. You have decided that getting the work done will benefit you more than not having it done. That's it.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
jacquesm 11y ago
> Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization No, they were lifted from poverty by their own hard work.
- chrischen 11y ago
  It takes hard work to make a living at $3/hr, outcompeting American factories.

chinathrow 11y ago

I am neither US nor chinese but I know that 3$/h is not a rate I wish anyone these days. Anywhere. Simple, eh?

mjfl 11y ago
China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? edit: This is an honest question.
- Gigablah 11y ago
  Describing China as "communist" is like describing the US as a "democracy".
- hackuser 11y ago
  > China is technically communist right? Shouldn't they be being taken care of by the state anyways? They are not actually communist; they are an authoritarian state controlling a capitalist economy. They started down that path in the late 1970s under Deng Xiaopeng. Before that, the state did a very poor job caring for its citizens. Millions died of starvation, persecution, and other ills. Look up the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution, two government programs, as examples. After that, probably never in the history of humanity have so many in a time and place escaped poverty as those who have in China. However, the country is so large that there are still many that are very poor.
johndevor 11y ago
You're not answering the question. What would you have him do?
JesperRavn 11y ago
No, it's not simple at all. You might not wish that anyone make $3 an hour, but neither do you have the ability to provide everyone in the world with jobs that pay more than $3 an hour. The argument from classical economics is not that low wages are good in themselves, but that the best system is where wages are set by the market, and wealth redistribution is done by the government and private charity.
jaredhansen 11y ago
Hey, while we're wishing, for my part I wish that everyone made $1B/hr! (After accounting for inflationary effects, of course.) Private jets for everyone! But back in real life, while $3/hr may not be a lot compared to what some folks make, it's $3/hr more than someone making $0/hr makes, and it's triple what someone making $1/hr makes, and indeed a full 50% raise for anyone making $2/hr. If I could wave a wand and give everyone who currently makes 0, 1 or 2/hr the skill set and the opportunity to suddenly make $3/hr, I'd be happy to do it. And the billions of people (hundreds of millions maybe?) who suddenly got (in their terms) a huge raise would be pretty happy about it too.
- hifromsz 11y ago
  I'm not sure you would be as quick to sarcasm if you spent some time in Chinese factories. It's a though life, even in the good ones. As the purchaser you have a lot of power over the process, not just at one factory, but in which factory you choose. To me that also means you have a responsibility. The least anyone working with Chinese companies should do, is to go and look at the factories.
  - jblow 11y ago
    Yes, it's a tough life, but people actually pick that life because other options are tougher (for example being a rural farmer somewhere). It is true that we should care about conditions in factories such as these and work to improve them. It's also true that if you insisted that Chinese workers get paid what American workers would, there would have been almost no factories and the entire country would still be in desolate poverty. Yes if there were no factories then probably the environment would be in a better condition. It's a very complex situation. Just picking one angle to it and insisting that angle holds the whole truth does not help anyone.
    - hifromsz 11y ago
      "It's a very complex situation" Unfortunately that wasn't represented in the rest of your comment. That people have much of a choice in what is essentially an industrial revolution is quite far fetched, so is the notion that factory work is easier than farming. I'm also not sure what American salaries has do to with my comment at all. I'm purely stating that people should have some respect for what many Chinese are going through without all or nothing BS arguments. China is much more dynamic than people are used to in the west. The have a much wider range of offerings. If you don't demand anything you're going to get the lowest one. To the disadvantage of yourself and the people doing the job.

feelslikefelt 11y ago

I agree with him. In this case, American entrepreneurs are abusing Chinese people. It's a human rights issue. It's an issue that China has been criticized for a very long time over. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-risks-in-exposing-chinas-forced-labor.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/world/asia/man-details-ris... or even http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-student-labor-1411572448 http://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-tech-factories-turn-to-st... This isn't a "well suck it up because at least you're getting paid /something/" issue. Chinese workers can still be beneficial to their country and the world while making a decent wage and without being abused.

adventured 11y ago
American entrepreneurs are the best thing that has happened to China in centuries. If it weren't for American capital, and the American consumer, China would have developed drastically slower (if at all). China's GDP per capita in 1994 was ~$480. That's ~45 years after the Mao revolution. There was no alternative than to pay them cheap wages to start. If you paid them 'first world' wages, nobody would have set up manufacturing in China to begin with; those manufacturers would have kept that manufacturing domestically or sought out another cheaper source. The sole reason China boomed the last 20 years is that they had 250 million low-wage workers available and willing to do low-cost manufacturing. If we're talking exploitation, the primary exploiters of cheap Chinese labor, are the 200 Chinese billionaires that have gotten rich off of leveraging their own impoverished workers - they own all the factories, the real estate, et al. China's wealth inequality puts every other country to shame.
- feelslikefelt 11y ago
  I just don't understand how anyone could be OK with /anyone/ that takes part in this process. It's not okay for the "200 Chinese billionaires" to be profiting off of abusing others, just as it is not okay for Americans to be giving money to these people. There is a difference between being successful financially and being able to sleep well at night.
  - 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

s73v3r 11y ago

"He could pay them $0/hr by not giving them the jobs." I've always found that to be the absolute shittiest of rebuttals, given by those who have absolutely no point whatsoever. This person is not "giving" anyone a job; they are not being seeing a group of people and saying, "Hmmm, they look like they could use some work. I will create some and give it to them." No. This person needed some work done, and they were offering work. That's it. The person is not a "job creator"; those things don't exist. "If you're American you can be proud you helped lift a country from the third world into the second." And do we get to be proud of the complete and utter skull fucking the Chinese environment has taken as a result of that?

jblow 11y ago
If you ever run a company you'll know that job creators exist. I had a bunch of money. I could have kept it locked in a box somewhere. Instead I decided to pay a bunch of people to help make something cool. Yes, that's a transaction, but for my part, I didn't have to engage in it. (In fact some days I kind of regret it, given all the garbage one has to put up with when running a company.) I could have kept the money locked in a box and felt happy that I feel rich. Or something.
- facetube 11y ago
  Or, to spin it just as hard the other way: a bunch of people gave up half of their waking hours for years in order to help make your something-cool business successful, and accepted your money in exchange for that assistance. They could have stayed home or done something else.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  "If you ever run a company you'll know that job creators exist." No they don't. There are people who want work done, and people who provide that work. That's it. You're not "creating jobs" simply because you feel like you want to create jobs. You have decided that getting the work done will benefit you more than not having it done. That's it.
- dragonwriter 11y ago

jacquesm 11y ago

> Billions of Chinese were lifted from poverty by American globalization No, they were lifted from poverty by their own hard work.

chrischen 11y ago
It takes hard work to make a living at $3/hr, outcompeting American factories.