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It would be actually interesting to look at the commits of a candidate's any online project repository from the very start and observe how the candidate made th

It would be actually interesting to look at the commits of a candidate's any online project repository from the very start and observe how the candidate made the progress with respect to the structure of code and improvement in coding practice. To check whether the candidate optimizes and refactors the code during the development of the project leading to a stable release.

ska 11y ago
That's interesting when available, yes.
chii 11y ago
that assumes the candidate has an online repo somewhere. I think this is quite a discriminating practice - what if i don't do public projects?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- __z 11y ago
  And that online repo is fully complex and developed. And has a stable release, isn't a work in progress. That code you hacked together in a couple hours to solve a quick problem isn't going to be an indication of how you handle a mature project with multiple developers.
- eropple 11y ago
  Generally speaking, I preferentially hire developers with public projects--though I do not just pick one at random and ask for one they're particularly proud of. I think open source development is virtuous and is something that I want to promote and encourage; in the process, I get what I think is a better view into how somebody works. If you don't do public projects, then you start a few steps behind the other candidates. This isn't insurmountable, but the error bars are wider, making you a somewhat greater risk.
  - __z 11y ago
    You are probably going to miss hiring a real lot of excellent candidates with that attitude. > I think open source development is virtuous and is something that I want to promote and encourage Then pay them for it.
    - eropple 11y ago
      Only in the weirdly defensive world of Hacker News does preferring people who contribute to open source software imply throwing out resumes without it, does it imply "missing out" on those people. Of course I consider resumes without open source work. It would be stupid to not do so. But I will look first at those with a publicly auditable track record. Is that a surprise? I look, earlier in the list, at people who've worked at a number of large firms with strong technical teams, too. They shrink the error bars on hiring. Though, even if it didn't mean I was getting a view into how they actually work, I'm okay with preferring public-minded people who give things back and make the world a better place through it. I try very hard to live by the motto "pay it forward" and I find it to be rewarding and pleasant to work with those who do likewise. > Then pay them for it. My last two employers did exactly that. Should I need to hire directly for my consulting adventures, I'll do it there, too. I mean, this reply makes no sense to me: why would I not?
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  >I think this is quite a discriminating practice - what if i don't do public projects? Then either start one or resign yourself to not getting the best possible tech jobs out there? As a discriminatory practice it's probably one of the most benign. There's a low bar to putting open source code out there. You can write a simple project and put it out there in a couple of weekends. That alone puts you ahead of about 80% of candidates. It's a way better discriminatory practice than the current default assumption that the best developers out there are white, male twenty-somethings.
  - chii 11y ago
    > default assumption that the best developers out there are white, male twenty-somethings. don't you think that there's a higher proportion of white, twenty-something people who would have public projects (because they tend to have the most spare time)? Don't you think that the over-worked CRUD programmer at an obscure insurance company wanting to get out because they are in a difficult situation (may be financially, may be race/background etc), would find it hard to have time for a public showing of their coding prowess? No one is saying don't use public projects, but i would only consider them after other aspects, and certainly wouldn't cull people because of it.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >Don't you think that the over-worked CRUD programmer at an obscure insurance company wanting to get out because they are in a difficult situation (may be financially, may be race/background etc), would find it hard to have time for a public showing of their coding prowess? Like I said: the amount of time you realistically need to get something out there is about a couple of weekends.
  - senderista 11y ago
    The bar is not necessarily as low as you think. At companies like Amazon you have to get approval for even the simplest personal projects, which could take months if you're unlucky.
mtviewdave 11y ago
This assumes that developers' off-work behavior is similar enough to their work behavior that it's a reliable indicator of their workplace performance. Or that developers should comport themselves on their off time to a workplace-level standard. The problem with this is that it doesn't let my personal projects be Play. If I'm writing something for myself, it's not going to be as clean and documented to the level it would be in the workplace. And why should it? It's supposed to be for me. And if I'm learning a new technology, I'm going to be sloppy. I'm going to make mistakes. That's the very nature of learning-by-doing. But in the real world of managers and companies looking for reasons to say "no hire", I have to assume that every public checkin I do is another potential "no hire" justification. Which means if make all my checkins public, I have to treat my personal projects as Work, not as play. Which is an excellent way to burn out. Or I just give you a curated look at the final product. Which ought to be enough.
- aaggarwal 11y ago
  Yeah, personal projects could be sloppy, as it's mostly for learning new technology. And it may also be unfair to say that a good programmer always produce clean code, no matter the reason for development. But still, there must be one project that the candidate considers his best work, one he/she is proud of, one where he/she has motivation to do best. If the employer can just ask the candidate for that project, and the candidate can show that project in a public or private repository, this would give really important insights to the employer about the candidate which would be beneficial for that both. Also, this doesn't mean that the candidates who doesn't have public repository to show have any disadvantage, they are at the same point. Its just that the candidate who is able to provide a project of his choice through public repository would be a few points ahead other candidates.
  - mtviewdave 11y ago
    >But still, there must be one project that the candidate considers his best work, one he/she is proud of, one where he has motivation to do best. For an experienced developer, that would be a workplace project, which you probably could not see. Indeed, it _should_ be a workplace project; would you hire a professional developer whose best work is their personal project? But if what you're saying is that the mark of an ideal developer is one who has produced a personal-time product of professional quality, where every checkin is to workplace standards, and has developed the project from conception all the way to release, again all on personal time, then what you're asking for is not a developer who also codes as a hobby, but a developer who (at least part of the time) works two actual jobs. One of which they do for free for portfolio development. I don't find that to be a reasonable expectation, even if it would give employers "important insights".
collyw 11y ago
So I have a small side project I have hosted on Heroku. Getting stuff working on Heroku was a pain, and involved a commit for every thing I changed to try and make it work. How would you view a ton of commit messages in that context?

ska 11y ago

That's interesting when available, yes.

chii 11y ago

that assumes the candidate has an online repo somewhere. I think this is quite a discriminating practice - what if i don't do public projects?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
__z 11y ago
And that online repo is fully complex and developed. And has a stable release, isn't a work in progress. That code you hacked together in a couple hours to solve a quick problem isn't going to be an indication of how you handle a mature project with multiple developers.
eropple 11y ago
Generally speaking, I preferentially hire developers with public projects--though I do not just pick one at random and ask for one they're particularly proud of. I think open source development is virtuous and is something that I want to promote and encourage; in the process, I get what I think is a better view into how somebody works. If you don't do public projects, then you start a few steps behind the other candidates. This isn't insurmountable, but the error bars are wider, making you a somewhat greater risk.
- __z 11y ago
  You are probably going to miss hiring a real lot of excellent candidates with that attitude. > I think open source development is virtuous and is something that I want to promote and encourage Then pay them for it.
  - eropple 11y ago
    Only in the weirdly defensive world of Hacker News does preferring people who contribute to open source software imply throwing out resumes without it, does it imply "missing out" on those people. Of course I consider resumes without open source work. It would be stupid to not do so. But I will look first at those with a publicly auditable track record. Is that a surprise? I look, earlier in the list, at people who've worked at a number of large firms with strong technical teams, too. They shrink the error bars on hiring. Though, even if it didn't mean I was getting a view into how they actually work, I'm okay with preferring public-minded people who give things back and make the world a better place through it. I try very hard to live by the motto "pay it forward" and I find it to be rewarding and pleasant to work with those who do likewise. > Then pay them for it. My last two employers did exactly that. Should I need to hire directly for my consulting adventures, I'll do it there, too. I mean, this reply makes no sense to me: why would I not?
crdoconnor 11y ago
>I think this is quite a discriminating practice - what if i don't do public projects? Then either start one or resign yourself to not getting the best possible tech jobs out there? As a discriminatory practice it's probably one of the most benign. There's a low bar to putting open source code out there. You can write a simple project and put it out there in a couple of weekends. That alone puts you ahead of about 80% of candidates. It's a way better discriminatory practice than the current default assumption that the best developers out there are white, male twenty-somethings.
- chii 11y ago
  > default assumption that the best developers out there are white, male twenty-somethings. don't you think that there's a higher proportion of white, twenty-something people who would have public projects (because they tend to have the most spare time)? Don't you think that the over-worked CRUD programmer at an obscure insurance company wanting to get out because they are in a difficult situation (may be financially, may be race/background etc), would find it hard to have time for a public showing of their coding prowess? No one is saying don't use public projects, but i would only consider them after other aspects, and certainly wouldn't cull people because of it.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >Don't you think that the over-worked CRUD programmer at an obscure insurance company wanting to get out because they are in a difficult situation (may be financially, may be race/background etc), would find it hard to have time for a public showing of their coding prowess? Like I said: the amount of time you realistically need to get something out there is about a couple of weekends.
- senderista 11y ago
  The bar is not necessarily as low as you think. At companies like Amazon you have to get approval for even the simplest personal projects, which could take months if you're unlucky.

mtviewdave 11y ago

This assumes that developers' off-work behavior is similar enough to their work behavior that it's a reliable indicator of their workplace performance. Or that developers should comport themselves on their off time to a workplace-level standard. The problem with this is that it doesn't let my personal projects be Play. If I'm writing something for myself, it's not going to be as clean and documented to the level it would be in the workplace. And why should it? It's supposed to be for me. And if I'm learning a new technology, I'm going to be sloppy. I'm going to make mistakes. That's the very nature of learning-by-doing. But in the real world of managers and companies looking for reasons to say "no hire", I have to assume that every public checkin I do is another potential "no hire" justification. Which means if make all my checkins public, I have to treat my personal projects as Work, not as play. Which is an excellent way to burn out. Or I just give you a curated look at the final product. Which ought to be enough.

aaggarwal 11y ago
Yeah, personal projects could be sloppy, as it's mostly for learning new technology. And it may also be unfair to say that a good programmer always produce clean code, no matter the reason for development. But still, there must be one project that the candidate considers his best work, one he/she is proud of, one where he/she has motivation to do best. If the employer can just ask the candidate for that project, and the candidate can show that project in a public or private repository, this would give really important insights to the employer about the candidate which would be beneficial for that both. Also, this doesn't mean that the candidates who doesn't have public repository to show have any disadvantage, they are at the same point. Its just that the candidate who is able to provide a project of his choice through public repository would be a few points ahead other candidates.
- mtviewdave 11y ago
  >But still, there must be one project that the candidate considers his best work, one he/she is proud of, one where he has motivation to do best. For an experienced developer, that would be a workplace project, which you probably could not see. Indeed, it _should_ be a workplace project; would you hire a professional developer whose best work is their personal project? But if what you're saying is that the mark of an ideal developer is one who has produced a personal-time product of professional quality, where every checkin is to workplace standards, and has developed the project from conception all the way to release, again all on personal time, then what you're asking for is not a developer who also codes as a hobby, but a developer who (at least part of the time) works two actual jobs. One of which they do for free for portfolio development. I don't find that to be a reasonable expectation, even if it would give employers "important insights".

collyw 11y ago

So I have a small side project I have hosted on Heroku. Getting stuff working on Heroku was a pain, and involved a commit for every thing I changed to try and make it work. How would you view a ton of commit messages in that context?