7 ms·

I disagree with your last assessment. men who need to take terrible jobs are often disposable cogs, but when women have to do it they are victims, a call to ac

by autokad 11y ago

I disagree with your last assessment. men who need to take terrible jobs are often disposable cogs, but when women have to do it they are victims, a call to action is needed, etc. I had spoken to several women who entered 'the trade'. they got money for flight,plastic surgery,room, and board. because of that, a lot of their money is kept until they 'finish their contract' and go back to their home country. human slavery does happen, but its not the default case. and while its true people are 'exploited' due to not knowing all their options, etc, but thats no different than what happens in other work environments. think: why do employers often forbid talking about pay? the human trafficking narrative emerges from the idea that when it comes to prostitution, many were starting to realize how senseless outlawing it really was, and that many of the fear claims associated with it were inaccurate. so they changed the topic from prostitution to human trafficking. as research has been finding out, the negative feelings associated with 'whores' & 'sluts' is most often propagated by wealthy women trying to protect their status.

nostrebored 11y ago
How senseless outlawing prostitution is? That's absurd. Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. Prostitution is coerced sex in which a woman loses her autonomy, and in the case of desperation, her ability to say yes or no to potential 'clients'. It's a very clear objectification in which not only is the work stigmatized, it's also not productive for the woman -- working in a coal mine is valuable job experience that sets you up to be able to do other manual labor jobs. You have references, contacts, etc. Prostitution does not afford you the same ability. Men who take terrible jobs are disposable cogs? Is that why these jobs have labor unions, rights, and transferable skills? If you want to talk about disposable, talk about the women who are disappeared after their usefulness as a prostitute is up. Talk about the women who are in their late 20's with no work skills, who are ashamed to be around their friends or family. Talk about the women who enter the sex trade and their drastically increased rates of drug abuse and suicide.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. The Nordic model is less efficient than decriminalisation. It drives sex workers underground, giving them less protection.
  - nostrebored 11y ago
    Legalization has shown an increase in human trafficking to Germany. The use of unions has also been stigmatized by the pimps -- sorry, "Brothel owners" to the point that they're completely ineffective. Surprise, surprise, vulnerable women are still exploited. How can you call that effective?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
      Germany doesn't have decriminalisation, it has regulation.
      - nostrebored 11y ago
        Sorry, you're correct and I edited my post to reflect that. Are you arguing for completely unregulated decriminalization? You really don't think that this would cause an increase in trafficking? If an attempt at legalization with measures to curb trafficking didn't work, how would literally letting pimps operate with impunity be a better solution? Here's a paper with some links to how decrim has worked in Auckland: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29... As we've reached the nested reply limit here: It would let pimps operate with impunity because the service which they are having others sell is no longer an issue? While not all sex workers are trafficked, even those who are not trafficked have pimps. The WHISPER study from the late 80's said that almost 90% of women interviewed had pimps during their time in prostitution. Full decriminalization by it's very nature makes pimping legal -- that's one of its tenants. If you think there is going to be a shortage of abusive/exploitative people waiting in line for that opportunity, we live in very different worlds. Also, the Nordic model gets around that by only criminalizing the sex-work for the person buying it. When arrests are made, the prostitute is asked if they would like assistance with leaving the industry, if they answer no then they are free to go. @abandonliberty I would argue that it shows that given what we currently know, the Nordic model of decriminalization for sex workers and criminalization of sex buyers seems to be the most effective at reducing the harms of prostitution. Seeing as both street prostitution, which is dangerous, and human trafficking have been on the decline since it's implementation, and the results have not been the same in other countries in which legalization/decrim have been attempted, it's the prudent course of action.
lukeschlather 11y ago
Please don't make this into some stupid men vs. women debate. If you want to do something about men who are forced to take terrible jobs, go join one of the many labor rights organizations in the world. Don't slander people focusing on a specific kind of coerced labor.
- wyager 11y ago
  Labor rights organizations cannot change the fact that shitty jobs exist and someone needs to do them. If you actually want to eliminate terrible jobs, become a physicist or a nanotechnologist or an AI researcher or...
  - lukeschlather 11y ago
    It's not a question of eliminating shitty jobs, it's a question of ensuring that people get paid a living wage, or at least work in reasonably safe conditions. For most businesses, the resources exist to keep people safe and well-compensated, but sometimes the people at the top choose to cut corners and that's where labor organizations come in.
_nedR 11y ago
>>human slavery does happen, but its not the default case. Which country are you talking about? I can imagine this being true in countries like the Netherlands, where state and police actively regulates and monitors it (instead of simple allowing it and ignoring it), but from the preponderance of media coverage and anecdotes i do indeed think that the majority of women in this industry worldwide are exploited in some form or the other to do this job.
- BillyParadise 11y ago
  "I read it on HN, so it must be true?" My wife did her master's thesis on sex workers in the Philippines. TL;DR - for the vast majority of female sex workers in that country, it is an economic CHOICE. The mostly single mothers felt it was their best opportunity to earn an income capable of supporting their families. Those with agendas (especially those who are after your donations) are always the ones who speak the loudest.
  - _nedR 11y ago
    Well, not just HN but i get the point. That does raise a lot of interesting questions. How did they get into the trade ? - This is usually where the primary exploitation happens. After that, it is not uncommon for women to stay within the industry by choice, (because they don't know how to do anything else, they have debts to pay, shame/stigma and trouble reintegrating with society and family after being outcast). Who are the fathers of the children - Are they from an actual relationship or are they consequences of the trade? Of course, all my statements are primarily from media coverage or anecdotal in nature. I don't know how things are in the Phillipines. Could you share a link to the paper? Might be a good counter-point on the matter which people can cite. edit : typos
  - peterwwillis 11y ago
    After the war, German families encouraged their children to prostitute themselves to make money for the family. They did this because it was the best "choice" available to be able to feed themselves. Of course, not every country is the same, not every scenario is the same, and thus we can't say that the choice some German families made after WWII and those single mothers in the Philippines are making the same kind of choice, are they? Make no mistake - the vast, VAST majority of sex workers in the world are being exploited. Sometimes it's in the form of violence and coercion to continue the job. Sometimes it's due to unfair social and economic pressure on a vulnerable demographic. Sometimes it's just plain-old sexism, misogyny, humiliation, degradation, etc that's taken for granted as part of the career, which some workers have more agency in allowing, while others that have to take whatever abuse comes their way. For the most part, my friends who are sex workers and enjoy the work are people who have unlimited choice: stable, single, educated, white, middle-upper-class women who could probably get any job they wanted, and choose this career and their clients. My friends who are sex workers and don't enjoy the work have effectively no choice in the matter, either because they don't have an effective education, they have an inability to get other regular work, are destitute, have no social support structure, or have emotional or psychological disorders. And these are the people who are not being pimped out or sold for slavery. But I probably don't know what i'm talking about, because I didn't write a master's thesis on it.
belorn 11y ago
The third story is that people in desperate situation sometime takes desperate actions in order to bring food to the table. Those people are sometimes victim to circumstances, heroic in their action, and judged by society differently based on gender. Being seen only as victim or only as heroic removes half the truth, and hurting those persons in the process. I don't think there is a call for action, rather a call for understanding. Labels like victim and hero frames the narrative, which is why they are often found in the introduction.

by autokad 11y ago

nostrebored 11y ago

How senseless outlawing prostitution is? That's absurd. Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. Prostitution is coerced sex in which a woman loses her autonomy, and in the case of desperation, her ability to say yes or no to potential 'clients'. It's a very clear objectification in which not only is the work stigmatized, it's also not productive for the woman -- working in a coal mine is valuable job experience that sets you up to be able to do other manual labor jobs. You have references, contacts, etc. Prostitution does not afford you the same ability. Men who take terrible jobs are disposable cogs? Is that why these jobs have labor unions, rights, and transferable skills? If you want to talk about disposable, talk about the women who are disappeared after their usefulness as a prostitute is up. Talk about the women who are in their late 20's with no work skills, who are ashamed to be around their friends or family. Talk about the women who enter the sex trade and their drastically increased rates of drug abuse and suicide.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> Look at the efficacy of the Nordic model. The Nordic model is less efficient than decriminalisation. It drives sex workers underground, giving them less protection.
- nostrebored 11y ago
  Legalization has shown an increase in human trafficking to Germany. The use of unions has also been stigmatized by the pimps -- sorry, "Brothel owners" to the point that they're completely ineffective. Surprise, surprise, vulnerable women are still exploited. How can you call that effective?
  - TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
    Germany doesn't have decriminalisation, it has regulation.
    - nostrebored 11y ago
      Sorry, you're correct and I edited my post to reflect that. Are you arguing for completely unregulated decriminalization? You really don't think that this would cause an increase in trafficking? If an attempt at legalization with measures to curb trafficking didn't work, how would literally letting pimps operate with impunity be a better solution? Here's a paper with some links to how decrim has worked in Auckland: http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29... As we've reached the nested reply limit here: It would let pimps operate with impunity because the service which they are having others sell is no longer an issue? While not all sex workers are trafficked, even those who are not trafficked have pimps. The WHISPER study from the late 80's said that almost 90% of women interviewed had pimps during their time in prostitution. Full decriminalization by it's very nature makes pimping legal -- that's one of its tenants. If you think there is going to be a shortage of abusive/exploitative people waiting in line for that opportunity, we live in very different worlds. Also, the Nordic model gets around that by only criminalizing the sex-work for the person buying it. When arrests are made, the prostitute is asked if they would like assistance with leaving the industry, if they answer no then they are free to go. @abandonliberty I would argue that it shows that given what we currently know, the Nordic model of decriminalization for sex workers and criminalization of sex buyers seems to be the most effective at reducing the harms of prostitution. Seeing as both street prostitution, which is dangerous, and human trafficking have been on the decline since it's implementation, and the results have not been the same in other countries in which legalization/decrim have been attempted, it's the prudent course of action.

lukeschlather 11y ago

Please don't make this into some stupid men vs. women debate. If you want to do something about men who are forced to take terrible jobs, go join one of the many labor rights organizations in the world. Don't slander people focusing on a specific kind of coerced labor.

wyager 11y ago
Labor rights organizations cannot change the fact that shitty jobs exist and someone needs to do them. If you actually want to eliminate terrible jobs, become a physicist or a nanotechnologist or an AI researcher or...
- lukeschlather 11y ago
  It's not a question of eliminating shitty jobs, it's a question of ensuring that people get paid a living wage, or at least work in reasonably safe conditions. For most businesses, the resources exist to keep people safe and well-compensated, but sometimes the people at the top choose to cut corners and that's where labor organizations come in.

_nedR 11y ago

>>human slavery does happen, but its not the default case. Which country are you talking about? I can imagine this being true in countries like the Netherlands, where state and police actively regulates and monitors it (instead of simple allowing it and ignoring it), but from the preponderance of media coverage and anecdotes i do indeed think that the majority of women in this industry worldwide are exploited in some form or the other to do this job.

BillyParadise 11y ago
"I read it on HN, so it must be true?" My wife did her master's thesis on sex workers in the Philippines. TL;DR - for the vast majority of female sex workers in that country, it is an economic CHOICE. The mostly single mothers felt it was their best opportunity to earn an income capable of supporting their families. Those with agendas (especially those who are after your donations) are always the ones who speak the loudest.
- _nedR 11y ago
  Well, not just HN but i get the point. That does raise a lot of interesting questions. How did they get into the trade ? - This is usually where the primary exploitation happens. After that, it is not uncommon for women to stay within the industry by choice, (because they don't know how to do anything else, they have debts to pay, shame/stigma and trouble reintegrating with society and family after being outcast). Who are the fathers of the children - Are they from an actual relationship or are they consequences of the trade? Of course, all my statements are primarily from media coverage or anecdotal in nature. I don't know how things are in the Phillipines. Could you share a link to the paper? Might be a good counter-point on the matter which people can cite. edit : typos
- peterwwillis 11y ago
  After the war, German families encouraged their children to prostitute themselves to make money for the family. They did this because it was the best "choice" available to be able to feed themselves. Of course, not every country is the same, not every scenario is the same, and thus we can't say that the choice some German families made after WWII and those single mothers in the Philippines are making the same kind of choice, are they? Make no mistake - the vast, VAST majority of sex workers in the world are being exploited. Sometimes it's in the form of violence and coercion to continue the job. Sometimes it's due to unfair social and economic pressure on a vulnerable demographic. Sometimes it's just plain-old sexism, misogyny, humiliation, degradation, etc that's taken for granted as part of the career, which some workers have more agency in allowing, while others that have to take whatever abuse comes their way. For the most part, my friends who are sex workers and enjoy the work are people who have unlimited choice: stable, single, educated, white, middle-upper-class women who could probably get any job they wanted, and choose this career and their clients. My friends who are sex workers and don't enjoy the work have effectively no choice in the matter, either because they don't have an effective education, they have an inability to get other regular work, are destitute, have no social support structure, or have emotional or psychological disorders. And these are the people who are not being pimped out or sold for slavery. But I probably don't know what i'm talking about, because I didn't write a master's thesis on it.

belorn 11y ago

The third story is that people in desperate situation sometime takes desperate actions in order to bring food to the table. Those people are sometimes victim to circumstances, heroic in their action, and judged by society differently based on gender. Being seen only as victim or only as heroic removes half the truth, and hurting those persons in the process. I don't think there is a call for action, rather a call for understanding. Labels like victim and hero frames the narrative, which is why they are often found in the introduction.