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I am not sure if Germany at fault here, bringing in the euro was not forced by them and Greece was cooking the books to get in. http://www.forbes.com/sites/tim

I am not sure if Germany at fault here, bringing in the euro was not forced by them and Greece was cooking the books to get in. http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/09/12/greece-was-lying-about-its-budget-numbers/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/09/12/greece-wa... I think most of southern Europe should be not in the euro zone at all, their economy would have better time on a weaker currency. http://stephansmithfx.com/articles/how-a-weak-currency-affects-an-economy/ http://stephansmithfx.com/articles/how-a-weak-currency-affec...

r00fus 11y ago
> I am not sure if Germany at fault here, bringing in the euro was not forced by them and Greece was cooking the books to get in. s/Greece/people running Greece at that time/ If you asked the who didn't profit from joining the Euro, likely you might have gotten a negative reply. Seriously it's not a fault issue here because multiple parties (including the vampire squids that are multination financial corporations like Goldman) conspired to profit from it. Question is what is going to be done to right the ship and avoid calamity?
- atmosx 11y ago
  Given the situation, I don't think that Greece has anything to gain from staying in the common currency. After ~ 8 years of Troika mismanagement the country is in dire situation and there has not been the slightest perception of improvement. So even if SYRIZA choose to blink, the next government wont.
zurn 11y ago
Singling out Greece's creative accounting in Euro accession as the main problem is blaming the victim here. A lot of the countries did it to some extent, the EU turned a blind eye. And most of Greece's budget deficit happened only after joining the Euro. Greece is despite their own share of f-ups largely a casualty of the systemic problems and EU's failure in handling of the crisis.
- Bootvis 11y ago
  Come on, they cooked their own books and noone forced them. They may suffer from that now but pointing that out is not 'victim blaming'.
  - gizmo 11y ago
    Spain is also suffering and they didn't cook their books. It was also an open secret that Greece's numbers were manipulated, but the ideal of a united Europe with one currency overruled economic pragmatism. Even if Greece had no corruption at all they would still be in a nearly indistinguishable position. They still would have been flooded with debt (simply a consequence of interest rates dropping during the boom) and they would still get a crushing depression (because that's what happens when you share a currency with larger and economically stronger countries). When Greece joined the Euro the outcome was nearly inevitable, so blaming Greece for this makes little sense. The austerity policies the troika imposed on the Greek people were brutal and completely unnecessary, though. So that's the outrageous part.
    - mcv 11y ago
      The austerity measures weren't just unnecessary, they actively hurt the Greek economy, making it even harder for them to repay the remaining debt. It was totally stupid.
    - istvan__ 11y ago
      I see. What is you suggested solution?
      - gizmo 11y ago
        I don't think there's a solution that's politically palatable to all parties. To fix the humanitarian crisis in Greece they need money in the short term, and the opportunity to do substantial reform in the long term. This ultimately benefits everybody in Europe, but it's not an easy sell. The press coverage of the crisis has been so toxic that most people in Germany, Belgium, France, etc, believe that any money going to Greece will by definition get squandered. On top of that there are prejudicial stereotypes about Greeks being lazy (false: in a country with poor infrastructure you have to work more hours to get even a little work done) or that they've benefited immensely from the Euro (false: Germany is the big beneficiary because they're the biggest exporter. The "opportunity" Greece got to borrow cheaply was a trap, and Greece's economy is wrecked now). So even the politicians who understand the economics don't dare suggest major debt forgiveness and fiscal transfers. This isn't even an outrageous solution, if you remember that states like Mississippi and Alabama net more than 500bln from the federal government, every year. This subsidy is much larger than the entire GDP of Greece. The US is willing to subsidize poorer member states, and the EU should do the same. Otherwise the Euro will fall apart, and the humanitarian catastrophe will worsen.

r00fus 11y ago

> I am not sure if Germany at fault here, bringing in the euro was not forced by them and Greece was cooking the books to get in. s/Greece/people running Greece at that time/ If you asked the who didn't profit from joining the Euro, likely you might have gotten a negative reply. Seriously it's not a fault issue here because multiple parties (including the vampire squids that are multination financial corporations like Goldman) conspired to profit from it. Question is what is going to be done to right the ship and avoid calamity?

atmosx 11y ago
Given the situation, I don't think that Greece has anything to gain from staying in the common currency. After ~ 8 years of Troika mismanagement the country is in dire situation and there has not been the slightest perception of improvement. So even if SYRIZA choose to blink, the next government wont.

zurn 11y ago

Singling out Greece's creative accounting in Euro accession as the main problem is blaming the victim here. A lot of the countries did it to some extent, the EU turned a blind eye. And most of Greece's budget deficit happened only after joining the Euro. Greece is despite their own share of f-ups largely a casualty of the systemic problems and EU's failure in handling of the crisis.

Bootvis 11y ago
Come on, they cooked their own books and noone forced them. They may suffer from that now but pointing that out is not 'victim blaming'.
- gizmo 11y ago
  Spain is also suffering and they didn't cook their books. It was also an open secret that Greece's numbers were manipulated, but the ideal of a united Europe with one currency overruled economic pragmatism. Even if Greece had no corruption at all they would still be in a nearly indistinguishable position. They still would have been flooded with debt (simply a consequence of interest rates dropping during the boom) and they would still get a crushing depression (because that's what happens when you share a currency with larger and economically stronger countries). When Greece joined the Euro the outcome was nearly inevitable, so blaming Greece for this makes little sense. The austerity policies the troika imposed on the Greek people were brutal and completely unnecessary, though. So that's the outrageous part.
  - mcv 11y ago
    The austerity measures weren't just unnecessary, they actively hurt the Greek economy, making it even harder for them to repay the remaining debt. It was totally stupid.
  - istvan__ 11y ago
    I see. What is you suggested solution?
    - gizmo 11y ago
      I don't think there's a solution that's politically palatable to all parties. To fix the humanitarian crisis in Greece they need money in the short term, and the opportunity to do substantial reform in the long term. This ultimately benefits everybody in Europe, but it's not an easy sell. The press coverage of the crisis has been so toxic that most people in Germany, Belgium, France, etc, believe that any money going to Greece will by definition get squandered. On top of that there are prejudicial stereotypes about Greeks being lazy (false: in a country with poor infrastructure you have to work more hours to get even a little work done) or that they've benefited immensely from the Euro (false: Germany is the big beneficiary because they're the biggest exporter. The "opportunity" Greece got to borrow cheaply was a trap, and Greece's economy is wrecked now). So even the politicians who understand the economics don't dare suggest major debt forgiveness and fiscal transfers. This isn't even an outrageous solution, if you remember that states like Mississippi and Alabama net more than 500bln from the federal government, every year. This subsidy is much larger than the entire GDP of Greece. The US is willing to subsidize poorer member states, and the EU should do the same. Otherwise the Euro will fall apart, and the humanitarian catastrophe will worsen.