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>Around 1 million families survive today on the meagre pension of a grandfather or a grandmother as the rest of the family members are unemployed in a country w

by dataker 11y ago

>Around 1 million families survive today on the meagre pension of a grandfather or a grandmother as the rest of the family members are unemployed in a country where only 9% of the unemployed receive any unemployment benefit. This is simply terrifying

Tomte 11y ago
It is, and that's why the institutions have urged Greece to introduce a social security net. It's not as if the other Europeans want Greece people to starve by cutting pensions etc. They want Greece to untangle this mess where there is no dependable social security and instead small social benefits like lower prices for electricity is handed out in an ad hoc way as part of election promises by the political parties who come into power.
- TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
  > It is, and that's why the institutions have urged Greece to introduce a social security net. What? You mean a social security net like the one that the "reforms" Greece had to implement destroyed?
  - Tomte 11y ago
    No. Greece has never had a social security system comparable to most other states AFAIK. It was always "ask for money from your grandparents' pensions".
    - atmosx 11y ago
      LOL, where did you get that from?! That's absolutely not true.
makeitsuckless 11y ago
It sounds terrifying, and it certainly isn't pretty, but it omits all relevant information. The height of those "meagre" pensions (insanely high compared to even the Greek economy before the collapse), the age of those retired grandparents (often much younger than people that can't afford to retire in countries currently financially supporting Greece) the number of those "rest of the family members" and the sizeable black economy those family members use to supplement that income. The whole system is terrifying, but the reality is that Greeks aren't starving in the street and this insane system needs fundamental reform to prevent that from happening. If Greece asked for billions to feed their population they would get it, but they want us to finance keeping this system up. A systems that haemorrhages money so badly it makes aid to developing nations in Africa look like the summit of effectiveness.
- vanelsas 11y ago
  When people discuss Greece they act as if every Greek person is the same. It is easy to use stereotypes. Greeks are lazy, they retire early, the pensions are "insanely high compared to even the Greek economy before the collapse". The European Union frames this conflict like this the whole time. Sure there are people that screwed up, that took advantage of the situation. There is corruption and extremely poor government for many years. But when you look past that, to the normal Greek person, trying to to the best and make a living then things aren't so simple anymore. DO you really belive that an entire country is evil and corrupt? My 2 uncles have both worked 6 days a week from 10:00AM until 22:00 PM, and 14 days a year vacation. They started working when they were 14 years old, worked until they were 78 and 79 (While we fight the 67 yr retirement rule in the rest of Europe). When they retired, they had to wait 2 years before their pension would start being paid out (normal practice). Only to find out that it was cut in half when it finally arrived. One of them died, the other one (84) now lives on a pension of less than 650 Euro per month. 300 goes to the rent. That leaves him 300 Euro to buy food, pay the bills, get healthcare, support his children (3), of which 2 have been fired and cannot get a job anywhere. And their grandchildren don't have jobs either (which is far more concerning imo). He has a heart condition, yet cannot pay for any medicines. His son has cancer, there is no money for medicines. So when you say that people aren't starving on the streets, then you may want to think about this situation and let it sink in. There is huge poverty in Greece, you may not se it, but it is there. My uncle isn't in a unique situation, this has happened to many, many Greeks.
rimantas 11y ago
Aren't pensions in Greece still highest in EU even after the cuts?
- gizmo 11y ago
  Absolutely not. 60% of Greek pensioners get less than €800 gross a month, and 45% live on less than the monthly poverty limit of €665. Also, unemployment is sky high so a lot of the pension money is used to feed impoverished family members.
- mcv 11y ago
  Unlikely. Dutch pensions are pretty good. But it is true that the retirement age in Greece is very low. Maybe that should be higher, but then again, with such high unemployment, what are you going to do with all those people? Also, Greeks work the most hours per year of any country in Europe. Maybe that should change; countries with more days off tend to have stronger economies. Maybe people are more productive when they're more rested and relaxed or something?
pvaldes 11y ago
Same history in Spain. About 300.000 families living in 2013 on the grandfather pension as only source of income apparently. http://www.teinteresa.es/espana/abuelos-mantienen-hogares-viven-desempleo_0_962305537.html http://www.teinteresa.es/espana/abuelos-mantienen-hogares-vi...

by dataker 11y ago

Tomte 11y ago

It is, and that's why the institutions have urged Greece to introduce a social security net. It's not as if the other Europeans want Greece people to starve by cutting pensions etc. They want Greece to untangle this mess where there is no dependable social security and instead small social benefits like lower prices for electricity is handed out in an ad hoc way as part of election promises by the political parties who come into power.

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
> It is, and that's why the institutions have urged Greece to introduce a social security net. What? You mean a social security net like the one that the "reforms" Greece had to implement destroyed?
- Tomte 11y ago
  No. Greece has never had a social security system comparable to most other states AFAIK. It was always "ask for money from your grandparents' pensions".
  - atmosx 11y ago
    LOL, where did you get that from?! That's absolutely not true.

makeitsuckless 11y ago

It sounds terrifying, and it certainly isn't pretty, but it omits all relevant information. The height of those "meagre" pensions (insanely high compared to even the Greek economy before the collapse), the age of those retired grandparents (often much younger than people that can't afford to retire in countries currently financially supporting Greece) the number of those "rest of the family members" and the sizeable black economy those family members use to supplement that income. The whole system is terrifying, but the reality is that Greeks aren't starving in the street and this insane system needs fundamental reform to prevent that from happening. If Greece asked for billions to feed their population they would get it, but they want us to finance keeping this system up. A systems that haemorrhages money so badly it makes aid to developing nations in Africa look like the summit of effectiveness.

vanelsas 11y ago
When people discuss Greece they act as if every Greek person is the same. It is easy to use stereotypes. Greeks are lazy, they retire early, the pensions are "insanely high compared to even the Greek economy before the collapse". The European Union frames this conflict like this the whole time. Sure there are people that screwed up, that took advantage of the situation. There is corruption and extremely poor government for many years. But when you look past that, to the normal Greek person, trying to to the best and make a living then things aren't so simple anymore. DO you really belive that an entire country is evil and corrupt? My 2 uncles have both worked 6 days a week from 10:00AM until 22:00 PM, and 14 days a year vacation. They started working when they were 14 years old, worked until they were 78 and 79 (While we fight the 67 yr retirement rule in the rest of Europe). When they retired, they had to wait 2 years before their pension would start being paid out (normal practice). Only to find out that it was cut in half when it finally arrived. One of them died, the other one (84) now lives on a pension of less than 650 Euro per month. 300 goes to the rent. That leaves him 300 Euro to buy food, pay the bills, get healthcare, support his children (3), of which 2 have been fired and cannot get a job anywhere. And their grandchildren don't have jobs either (which is far more concerning imo). He has a heart condition, yet cannot pay for any medicines. His son has cancer, there is no money for medicines. So when you say that people aren't starving on the streets, then you may want to think about this situation and let it sink in. There is huge poverty in Greece, you may not se it, but it is there. My uncle isn't in a unique situation, this has happened to many, many Greeks.

rimantas 11y ago

Aren't pensions in Greece still highest in EU even after the cuts?

gizmo 11y ago
Absolutely not. 60% of Greek pensioners get less than €800 gross a month, and 45% live on less than the monthly poverty limit of €665. Also, unemployment is sky high so a lot of the pension money is used to feed impoverished family members.
mcv 11y ago
Unlikely. Dutch pensions are pretty good. But it is true that the retirement age in Greece is very low. Maybe that should be higher, but then again, with such high unemployment, what are you going to do with all those people? Also, Greeks work the most hours per year of any country in Europe. Maybe that should change; countries with more days off tend to have stronger economies. Maybe people are more productive when they're more rested and relaxed or something?

pvaldes 11y ago

Same history in Spain. About 300.000 families living in 2013 on the grandfather pension as only source of income apparently. http://www.teinteresa.es/espana/abuelos-mantienen-hogares-viven-desempleo_0_962305537.html http://www.teinteresa.es/espana/abuelos-mantienen-hogares-vi...