3 ms·

If one considers the primary purpose of managers to be to improve the performance of those that report to them, then this list starts poorly. It _is_ terribly

by nbm 11y ago

If one considers the primary purpose of managers to be to improve the performance of those that report to them, then this list starts poorly. It _is_ terribly difficult to manage unmotivated people, but most people only end up unmotivated because of poor management. And it's usually cheaper and ultimately better to motivate a proved achiever who has lower motivation than to find a replacement.

danieltillett 11y ago
The most unmotivated people I have ever had the displeasure of having to manage were people I had no ability to fire or promote. There is basically nothing you can do yet higher management still holds you responsible for the lack of results.
- skeeterbug 11y ago
  If you can't fire or promote them are you really their manager?
  - balls187 11y ago
    Even if you are in an "At-Will" employment state, it's not as simple to fire an employee. You have to have HR involved, and prepare enough documentation to satisfy the need to terminate someone. In smaller orgs with no HR, it's probably easier, but larger companies have a specific process. Though to your point, I would not consider myself someones manager unless I had the option to hire, fire, or promote them.
  - yeukhon 11y ago
    Union, tenure, or simply no from upper management. Sometimes people deliver the result but they may behave in a way that shows they are not motivated. That is a hard thing to use to fire someone.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      Exactly. My experience is from within the university system where nobody can be fired for non-performance. You get people that are just waiting to retire and don't care about anyone other than themselves.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Not really, but when you are held responsible for their "productivity" (or more accurately lack of productivity) you have all the responsibility and none of the resources to manage.
- nbm 11y ago
  I've been on the receiving side of "no ability to promote", and ultimately the best thing a manager can do in that situation is to have an honest conversation about what is and isn't possible. In addition, don't just give up. Keep talking and helping out. It could be advice on how to stay motivated or at least not demotivated, carving out space for interesting projects or developing new skills, or even helping that person find a new opportunity outside the company. Dealing with unmotivated unproductive people you have limited ability to actually manage is beyond my experience.
  - balls187 11y ago
    > In addition, don't just give up. Keep talking and helping out. Motivation is the responsibility of the employee. As a manager, if your performance is faltering and it's because you're not motivated, I will tell you clearly my perspective, and ask if that is the case. However it's on you take corrective action. I will do everything I can to help you, but it's your responsibility, and not fair to the other team members who are motivated if 1. I am focusing my energy dealing with issues caused by your lack of motivation. 2. They're working extra to ensure success when a team member is unmotivated.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    It is most definitely not an experience you want. The best you can do is flow with it. The thing that gets tiring very quickly is having to do their work as well as your own because otherwise innocent people get harmed.
mentat 11y ago
> most people only end up unmotivated because of poor management I don't find this to be a self evident truth. Can you provide some argumentation around this?
- balls187 11y ago
  Most people who leave their jobs do so and cite management. Whether or not that has to do with their motivation is unclear.
nostrademons 11y ago
That's not always true. Sometimes people end up unmotivated because the organization shifts its mission in one direction while they shift their values in another, and so what starts out as great mission-alignment falls out of alignment. Sometimes people grow out of a role when the role doesn't grow with them. Sometimes peoples' life circumstances change and they don't have as much attention to devote to work. Sometimes people are just looking to collect a paycheck and don't care about the work at all. A manager should always start by assuming that a motivation problem is something he can address, and work with the employee to figure out what the real reason is and see if they can make the necessary changes. But sometimes, the employee and organization just aren't a good fit anymore, and it's better for both of them if they part ways and find new situations that are a good fit.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Isn't that just management at a higher level? You can have a great direct manager, but you are still at the mercy of his/her managers, and the re-orgs, mission shifts, and everything else. I guess this is why big companies often prefer employees who are motivated by things other than the work they do (like by the paycheck, as you mention). Problem is, you can't really be very innovative with that.
- nbm 11y ago
  Absolutely. There are many other ways people end up unmotivated, but the most common I've seen has to do with things that are within the realm of their manager - possibly with escalation to someone higher up. I've encountered only five managers who fully exemplify this, but they had an outsize role in keeping good people who others might not have been able to keep, keeping them productive (at least enough of the time to satisfy their work commitments while they dealt with other issues), and attracting more good people (because of word of mouth from the existing good people). It seems the key here was to have the conversations when they were needed. The advice here "Make your job easier and don’t." doesn't correlate with these great managers at all. At least two of them to my knowledge have given reports the advice (and assistance) to find opportunities elsewhere.

by nbm 11y ago

danieltillett 11y ago

The most unmotivated people I have ever had the displeasure of having to manage were people I had no ability to fire or promote. There is basically nothing you can do yet higher management still holds you responsible for the lack of results.

skeeterbug 11y ago
If you can't fire or promote them are you really their manager?
- balls187 11y ago
  Even if you are in an "At-Will" employment state, it's not as simple to fire an employee. You have to have HR involved, and prepare enough documentation to satisfy the need to terminate someone. In smaller orgs with no HR, it's probably easier, but larger companies have a specific process. Though to your point, I would not consider myself someones manager unless I had the option to hire, fire, or promote them.
- yeukhon 11y ago
  Union, tenure, or simply no from upper management. Sometimes people deliver the result but they may behave in a way that shows they are not motivated. That is a hard thing to use to fire someone.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Exactly. My experience is from within the university system where nobody can be fired for non-performance. You get people that are just waiting to retire and don't care about anyone other than themselves.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Not really, but when you are held responsible for their "productivity" (or more accurately lack of productivity) you have all the responsibility and none of the resources to manage.
nbm 11y ago
I've been on the receiving side of "no ability to promote", and ultimately the best thing a manager can do in that situation is to have an honest conversation about what is and isn't possible. In addition, don't just give up. Keep talking and helping out. It could be advice on how to stay motivated or at least not demotivated, carving out space for interesting projects or developing new skills, or even helping that person find a new opportunity outside the company. Dealing with unmotivated unproductive people you have limited ability to actually manage is beyond my experience.
- balls187 11y ago
  > In addition, don't just give up. Keep talking and helping out. Motivation is the responsibility of the employee. As a manager, if your performance is faltering and it's because you're not motivated, I will tell you clearly my perspective, and ask if that is the case. However it's on you take corrective action. I will do everything I can to help you, but it's your responsibility, and not fair to the other team members who are motivated if 1. I am focusing my energy dealing with issues caused by your lack of motivation. 2. They're working extra to ensure success when a team member is unmotivated.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  It is most definitely not an experience you want. The best you can do is flow with it. The thing that gets tiring very quickly is having to do their work as well as your own because otherwise innocent people get harmed.

mentat 11y ago

> most people only end up unmotivated because of poor management I don't find this to be a self evident truth. Can you provide some argumentation around this?

balls187 11y ago
Most people who leave their jobs do so and cite management. Whether or not that has to do with their motivation is unclear.

nostrademons 11y ago

That's not always true. Sometimes people end up unmotivated because the organization shifts its mission in one direction while they shift their values in another, and so what starts out as great mission-alignment falls out of alignment. Sometimes people grow out of a role when the role doesn't grow with them. Sometimes peoples' life circumstances change and they don't have as much attention to devote to work. Sometimes people are just looking to collect a paycheck and don't care about the work at all. A manager should always start by assuming that a motivation problem is something he can address, and work with the employee to figure out what the real reason is and see if they can make the necessary changes. But sometimes, the employee and organization just aren't a good fit anymore, and it's better for both of them if they part ways and find new situations that are a good fit.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Isn't that just management at a higher level? You can have a great direct manager, but you are still at the mercy of his/her managers, and the re-orgs, mission shifts, and everything else. I guess this is why big companies often prefer employees who are motivated by things other than the work they do (like by the paycheck, as you mention). Problem is, you can't really be very innovative with that.
nbm 11y ago
Absolutely. There are many other ways people end up unmotivated, but the most common I've seen has to do with things that are within the realm of their manager - possibly with escalation to someone higher up. I've encountered only five managers who fully exemplify this, but they had an outsize role in keeping good people who others might not have been able to keep, keeping them productive (at least enough of the time to satisfy their work commitments while they dealt with other issues), and attracting more good people (because of word of mouth from the existing good people). It seems the key here was to have the conversations when they were needed. The advice here "Make your job easier and don’t." doesn't correlate with these great managers at all. At least two of them to my knowledge have given reports the advice (and assistance) to find opportunities elsewhere.