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Right off the bat you tip your hand: you are selecting against people who are depressed. Rather than try to help them, you'd rather let them wallow in misery, f

Right off the bat you tip your hand: you are selecting against people who are depressed. Rather than try to help them, you'd rather let them wallow in misery, fail, become unemployed, schizophrenic and eventually die homeless.

cbd1984 11y ago
Depression causes schizophrenia?
- brobdingnagian 11y ago
  I wouldn't say causes - but the statistics speak volumes. A quarter of homeless people are schizophrenic.
  - minimaxir 11y ago
    Correlation does not imply causation.
    - brobdingnagian 11y ago
      Have enough heart to acknowledge what's going on in front of you.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    That's because the schizophrenics were basically evicted from the psychiatric hospitals. With nowhere to go and no one to care for them, they ended up homeless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_and_mental_health#Deinstitutionalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_and_mental_health... Also, how did you manage to relate this at all to TFA?
    - brobdingnagian 11y ago
      That accounts for some of the homeless schizophrenics. "Also, how did you manage to relate this at all to TFA?" Just what exactly do you think the real world implications of this attitude / policy are more generally? "It’s terribly difficult to manage unmotivated people. Make your job easier and don’t." He is saying: don't try to manage them. Fire them.
    - DanBC 11y ago
      You see higher rates of schizophrenia amoung homeless people in countries that have free health care and enough in-patient mental health beds. EG England, where mental health care is generally okay.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Depression and psychotic illnesses are very different. You probably have your causal link backwards: mental illness creates homelessness and vulnerably housed situations. The homelessness and vulnerably housed situations don't help people with a psychotic illness (contributing to medication non-compliance); and there is probably some situational depression there too. But it's probably wrong to say that homelessness cuses schizophrenia.
pen2l 11y ago
That's horribly off-topic, but I'll continue being horribly off-topic, only because I had a very strong realization about this today. My boss has been bugging me to get stuff done since there are some crazy deadlines coming up for us. I realized a few days ago that were it not for the craziness at work, I would be very lonely... I have nothing to do. And it's precisely when I have nothing to do that I start having negative or suicidal thoughts. So having a job really is a blessing for me, it gives me something to keep my mind preoccupied, and gives me an easy opportunity to socialize (walking up to someone and starting a conversation with someone is a lot easier.. when... well, you have to, because work requires that you have to :)).
- brobdingnagian 11y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I don't think it's off topic. "It’s terribly difficult to manage unmotivated people. Make your job easier and don’t." It's just a really really mean thing to say, especially coming from someone who is a manager / mentor.
  - pen2l 11y ago
    I agree that's a shitty thing. Also, sadly, it is a norm to think in this bleakly capitalistic way. By and large, you will not see normal people viewing the providing job/no job thing as something moral.
  - jordigh 11y ago
    I understand trying to be humane to everyone, but you cannot just decide to not fire anyone, ever. If someone does not want to be at a job, it is not an act of charity to keep them at that job. If they really do not want to be there, they can cause a lot more grief to themselves or others. It's cruel to be kind. You're not Schindler. Firing people is not a death sentence. If you fear for their mental health, fire them and direct them to services that can help. Hell, companies even do this routinely in a fashion: it's called outplacement.
    - smacktoward 11y ago
oh_sigh 11y ago
Not to be heartless, but why would it be a businesses concern if someone was depressed or not?
- brobdingnagian 11y ago
  Let's do a reductio-style thought experiment: what if everyone was depressed? That's obviously a business concern. The standard argument for socialism follows from the same reductio: what if everyone was happy? That would be GREAT for business.
  - adventured 11y ago
    The second one is not true. Utopia of happiness would result in vast stagnation. Agitation, annoyance, something needing fixed, imperfection, desire for more / self-improvement, etc. is a critical root of invention and creativity. Ideally not everyone is perfectly happy all at the same time. And it should be noted that is not the same as saying that everyone should never be happy. Rather, that it's incredibly valuable to have dissatisfied people in society - they're often the ones that break with the status quo and push humanity forward.
  - Sideloader 11y ago
    You are an idiot and I am so fucking glad I never have to work under assholes like you ever again. Oh, nice straw man you've built. Because treating employees like human beings = slippery slope to socialism. The level of fail in American management culture boggles the mind. These sad fools don't get that employee productivity and, thus, the company's earnings, would improve if they treated people with basic respect. An employee who actually wants to be at work is much more productive than the person who dreads coming to work every day. A lot of managers are assholes just because they can be and they should be fired on sight because their incompetence drags the entire team down and saddles the company with a shitty reputation. A miserable demotivated workforce plus a bad reputation in the industry (all of which could easily have been avoided) is like regularly shovelling bundles of $100 bills into the basement incinerator. Sadly, many companies shovel many bundles into many fires all over the nation and then promote the lead shoveller so he can start burning $1000 bundles.

cbd1984 11y ago

Depression causes schizophrenia?

brobdingnagian 11y ago
I wouldn't say causes - but the statistics speak volumes. A quarter of homeless people are schizophrenic.
- minimaxir 11y ago
  Correlation does not imply causation.
  - brobdingnagian 11y ago
    Have enough heart to acknowledge what's going on in front of you.
- jordigh 11y ago
  That's because the schizophrenics were basically evicted from the psychiatric hospitals. With nowhere to go and no one to care for them, they ended up homeless. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_and_mental_health#Deinstitutionalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_and_mental_health... Also, how did you manage to relate this at all to TFA?
  - brobdingnagian 11y ago
    That accounts for some of the homeless schizophrenics. "Also, how did you manage to relate this at all to TFA?" Just what exactly do you think the real world implications of this attitude / policy are more generally? "It’s terribly difficult to manage unmotivated people. Make your job easier and don’t." He is saying: don't try to manage them. Fire them.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    You see higher rates of schizophrenia amoung homeless people in countries that have free health care and enough in-patient mental health beds. EG England, where mental health care is generally okay.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Depression and psychotic illnesses are very different. You probably have your causal link backwards: mental illness creates homelessness and vulnerably housed situations. The homelessness and vulnerably housed situations don't help people with a psychotic illness (contributing to medication non-compliance); and there is probably some situational depression there too. But it's probably wrong to say that homelessness cuses schizophrenia.

pen2l 11y ago

That's horribly off-topic, but I'll continue being horribly off-topic, only because I had a very strong realization about this today. My boss has been bugging me to get stuff done since there are some crazy deadlines coming up for us. I realized a few days ago that were it not for the craziness at work, I would be very lonely... I have nothing to do. And it's precisely when I have nothing to do that I start having negative or suicidal thoughts. So having a job really is a blessing for me, it gives me something to keep my mind preoccupied, and gives me an easy opportunity to socialize (walking up to someone and starting a conversation with someone is a lot easier.. when... well, you have to, because work requires that you have to :)).

brobdingnagian 11y ago
Thanks for sharing. I don't think it's off topic. "It’s terribly difficult to manage unmotivated people. Make your job easier and don’t." It's just a really really mean thing to say, especially coming from someone who is a manager / mentor.
- pen2l 11y ago
  I agree that's a shitty thing. Also, sadly, it is a norm to think in this bleakly capitalistic way. By and large, you will not see normal people viewing the providing job/no job thing as something moral.
- jordigh 11y ago
  I understand trying to be humane to everyone, but you cannot just decide to not fire anyone, ever. If someone does not want to be at a job, it is not an act of charity to keep them at that job. If they really do not want to be there, they can cause a lot more grief to themselves or others. It's cruel to be kind. You're not Schindler. Firing people is not a death sentence. If you fear for their mental health, fire them and direct them to services that can help. Hell, companies even do this routinely in a fashion: it's called outplacement.
  - smacktoward 11y ago

oh_sigh 11y ago

Not to be heartless, but why would it be a businesses concern if someone was depressed or not?

brobdingnagian 11y ago
Let's do a reductio-style thought experiment: what if everyone was depressed? That's obviously a business concern. The standard argument for socialism follows from the same reductio: what if everyone was happy? That would be GREAT for business.
- adventured 11y ago
  The second one is not true. Utopia of happiness would result in vast stagnation. Agitation, annoyance, something needing fixed, imperfection, desire for more / self-improvement, etc. is a critical root of invention and creativity. Ideally not everyone is perfectly happy all at the same time. And it should be noted that is not the same as saying that everyone should never be happy. Rather, that it's incredibly valuable to have dissatisfied people in society - they're often the ones that break with the status quo and push humanity forward.
- Sideloader 11y ago
  You are an idiot and I am so fucking glad I never have to work under assholes like you ever again. Oh, nice straw man you've built. Because treating employees like human beings = slippery slope to socialism. The level of fail in American management culture boggles the mind. These sad fools don't get that employee productivity and, thus, the company's earnings, would improve if they treated people with basic respect. An employee who actually wants to be at work is much more productive than the person who dreads coming to work every day. A lot of managers are assholes just because they can be and they should be fired on sight because their incompetence drags the entire team down and saddles the company with a shitty reputation. A miserable demotivated workforce plus a bad reputation in the industry (all of which could easily have been avoided) is like regularly shovelling bundles of $100 bills into the basement incinerator. Sadly, many companies shovel many bundles into many fires all over the nation and then promote the lead shoveller so he can start burning $1000 bundles.