11 ms·

My Position On The Disney Layoffs

150 points by bradneuberg 11y ago

nodata 11y ago
Better screengrab it before it disappears.
- BaryonBundle 11y ago
  This was posted 5 days ago...
- KeithBarrett 11y ago
  It won't disappear. I hate broken links.
dataker 11y ago
Like Americans, such unscrupulous program also ends up hurting genuinely talented and skilled foreign workers. Many 'consulting firms' end up hiring/slaving thousands of workers(hence using the H1-b quota), whereas others(not exploiting the loophole) end up not getting called on the lottery. A rational and realistic discussion is necessary, but most end up becoming too biased and extreme("don't let anyone come here").
justizin 11y ago
"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1B Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." Anyone who still supports FWD.us and believes that the US doesn't produce enough professionals to satisfy the needs of our businesses is straight up, while they are reading this, actually holding a crack pipe to their mouth.
- silverbax88 11y ago
  I'm not clear (or arguing the point) about how this is specific to H-1B. Companies routinely lay off older, more expensive workers to get cheaper, younger employees. It's not what companies should do, but they do it all of the time. And then there's this, where apparently Disney cancelled the layoffs: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-cancels-tech-worker-layoffs.html?referrer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-... Which I don't see how that's entirely possible given that the article posted by OP specifically states that many employees were already let go in January. I can only speculate that the January layoffs were executed, and over the past week it was discovered that the 'replacement contractors' weren't the cheap magic rocket that Disney expected. That, too, happens in companies all of the time.
  - jgoewert 11y ago
    Anyone else read the article with the nagging voice saying: "Oh crap, we got caught trying to really bend the H1B program and have irked our main customer base. We'd better say that we are undoing it then put a policy in place to more slowly drive out everyone making more than minimum wage by using bad reviews and implementing impossible goals. No one will notice if we do it slowly."
    - silverbax88 11y ago
      I saw (or just inferred) damage control. The 'Happiest Place on Earth' can't make headlines for laying people off. I mean, they still will lay people off, but they'll spin it like they are actually creating tons of jobs and everyone is super duper happy about it.
- shas3 11y ago
  Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443477104577551250082215534 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...
  - melling 11y ago
    How do you determine what's "healthy"? Millions of Americans are caught in an endless cycle of poverty and we're fighting a $15 minimum wage. We've shipped millions of manufacturing jobs to China so it's harder to get a good job without a college education. Now we want to reduce the salaries of well-paid jobs by onshoring them. I'd say we should take a closer look at what we're actually doing.
    - marknutter 11y ago
      Wouldn't raising the minimum was make shipping jobs to China even more attractive?
      - Frondo 11y ago
        No, because you can't ship a Burger King job to China.
        Shivetya 11y ago
        why is a job flipping burgers worth 30k? by running up the cost of unskilled labor pressure is put upon those who need skilled labor and many of those jobs can go overseas
        Frondo 11y ago
        Why? Because we (as in "we the people") decide it is so? Remember, the government, and all its laws, derives its power from us, not the other way 'round.
- shas3 11y ago
  Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443477104577551250082215534 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...
- cbsmith 11y ago
  ....because they could have done this without an H-1B Visa program, and in fact, even in the hospitality service, they probably could move a lot of those jobs flat out overseas. Arguably the H-1B Visa program at least keeps the US labour market somewhat competitive with the overseas markets. No, there are a bunch of problems here, but access to immigrant labour on domestic soil isn't really even near the top of my list.
- teacup50 11y ago
  The "crack pipe" is in believing that these two situations are equivalent: - Disney replacing IT staff in bulk with outsourced workers. - A small (or large) technology firm wanting to hire a specific, highly qualified, but just happens to be foreign-born worker. The outsourcing companies consume so much of the H1-B pool that the people who want to use it correctly can't, and then people like you start talking about crack pipes.
- makeitsuckless 11y ago
  I believe the US, or any other Western nation, doesn't produce enough professionals to satisfy the needs of our businesses. (Source: I'm a hiring manager.) I also believe however that this situation is being abused to suppress wages by bringing in underpaid labour in a market that already needs a big upward salary correction to account for the shortage and economic value of these professionals. Abusing and manipulating the problem out of short term self-interest doesn't mean there isn't a problem. In fact it's a very common pattern. See for instance the war on drugs. Denial is not a strategy.
coldcode 11y ago
"... and they routinely sacrificed personal time and freedoms to help make your experience in the parks what it was". Never do this unless its a startup you own. You get paid for X to do Y hours and nothing more. Anything more is volunteer work for a for-profit employer.
- kogus 11y ago
  That's a pretty cynical attitude. It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally about the success of whatever they are doing. You don't have a moral obligation to bend over backwards for a company, but it's ok to be committed for reasons other than a paycheck.
  - fixermark 11y ago
    Stories like this one justify the cynical attitude. Corporations are not family. I personally transitioned from startup life to big-corporation specifically because the expectation to pull nights and weekends was physically burning a hole in my stomach. I will put in extra when requested of me, but I now take a much, much more critical attitude towards such requests; when you work for a publicly-traded company that has to report its balances to the SEC, it's pretty hard for them to claim poverty when they ask more of you.
  - dspillett 11y ago
    > It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally It is certainly possible, and usually very much appreciated (sometimes even rewarded) in the short term. Just don't expect it to make much difference to how you are treated over the longer term. The company won't forget that you are an employee and you shouldn't either. Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally obliged to screw you over if it is better for the company to do so than not.
    - yourapostasy 11y ago
      > Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally obliged to... You are spreading the myth of a US (and most nations, for that matter) legal obligation (the term of art is "fiduciary duty") of profit maximization to shareholders. Please read the following. http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-companies-legally-obligated-to-maximize-profits-for-shareholders http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-com... http://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-value-myth/ http://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-va... https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism If you are an attorney, then in the past somewhere on Harvard Law's site I found an exhaustively-written piece that gives specific case law citations I could cross-reference from Lexis-Nexis. The bar to clear to prove fiduciary malfeasance in corporate governance is very high, and the latitude granted to company management very broad; shareholders can enforce a fiduciary preference through shareholder activism and throw out management, but the US judiciary has steadfastly refused to lightly step into the management-shareholder relationship in this regard. This blog post delves into the follow-on questions more in the vein of corporate social responsibility once you acknowledge the legal reality. http://www.robertstavinsblog.org/2009/05/12/straight-talk-about-corporate-social-responsibility/ http://www.robertstavinsblog.org/2009/05/12/straight-talk-ab...
kirinan 11y ago
I usually don't comment on immigration policies because I'm a US citizen and have never been an immigrant worker, however I dont believe this affects the long term success or failure of the H1B visa program and nor should it. We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. If a company feels that they can get equal talent to mine in another country for cheaper costs then so be it; I didn't do a good enough job selling my talent or showing why Im worth my rate. Its also the company's loss if they chose to lay me off; I know what Im worth and Ill go find what Im worth. Even without the H1B visa program, companies will still do this; whether or not the company can employ the employee on US soil or not. This is in no way threatening to my way of life or makes me fear for my future career prospects. It sucks that Disney did this to their employees, but companies are no longer loyal to their people and haven't been for a long time; you should act accordingly and not show any loyalty to a company that shows you none.
- jbrooksuk 11y ago
  "They had good performance reviews and none expected to be told they were being let go 90 days later." I think they all showed their worth, otherwise they'd have not had good reviews...
- matwood 11y ago
  > We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. I completely agree, but that's not what the H1-B visa program does. It allows companies to lock in immigrant workers at a lower rate and little to no job mobility. From a companies standpoint it is obviously what they want - pay less, and job lock in! The fix for the H1-B is true immigration reform. We need to make it easy for people to come to the US and enter the job market just like anyone else.
  - theklub 11y ago
    Why do we need to make it easy for people to come take our jobs? Why would we do that?
    - someone7x 11y ago
ThePhysicist 11y ago
"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in the US? Firing an employee to replace him with an H-1b holder seems to completely contradict this requirement. Also, reading the visa requirements it seems that the company would be forced to pay an H-1b employee a salary which is equivalent to that payed to a "normal" employee performing the same function, so there does not seem to be a huge financial benefit in this either. Can anyone explain this?
- protomyth 11y ago
  They hired them through a third-party, thus Disney had to justify nothing. Look at the list of H1B awards and you'll see the big body shops.
  - pgrote 11y ago
    I am having trouble understanding your point and hoping you can clarify it. Disney contracted with this company to perform this action. Isn't Disney responsible for accepting these actions?
    - Balgair 11y ago
      So Disney contracts out the work to these body shops. The H1-B guy is an employee of the contracted-to firm, not of Disney. Disney is simply contracting out the work to a cheaper company. The contracted-to company says they can't find the workers, has enough lawyers to actually prove it, hires H1-Bs, and then contracts them to Disney.
    - exelius 11y ago
      Disney doesn't ask questions about how people are procured. From Disney's perspective, they're just hiring a company to take over technical operations and support. Technology is honestly not Disney's core competency, so it makes sense to outsource to someone who can do the same work with a lower cost base because it IS their core competency. They just have to sign a contract with Cognizant/Wipro/Infosys/etc that says they will provide managed services covering X, Y and Z products for $X million per year. Managed services contracts allow a contractor to have near complete control over personnel decisions; the client doesn't ask questions about how they can do it so cheap because they have no say in the matter anyway. Managed services contracts are managed against SLAs, so as long as you meet your SLAs, you get paid.
zeruch 11y ago
Having worked in an industry that supported Disney as a client once in my career, I find that whole firm contemptible, and this behavior doesn't surprise me at all.
monatron 11y ago
Can someone provide some context to this post? What happened at Disney?
- anon987 11y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653389 The story was flagged/shadowbanned to the 2nd page within an hour of it's submission despite it being on topic and having 200+ upvotes.
dwightgunning 11y ago
What exactly happened here? Reading between the lines it sounds like Disney are executing an outsourced IT transformation involving offshore IT application delivery (maybe maintenance, IT ops etc.)? Flying in staff from offshore teams to shadow/train with the team being reorganised is standard practice from what I've seen. It isn't pretty but it's not like Disney are breaking new ground here...
- nibbles123 11y ago
  That's what happened. I worked at Disney Technology during the new CIO's reign, but left for another opportunity a few months prior to the layoffs. Tilak Mandadi (Disney CIO) stated that there would be efforts to onboard contract employees to take over what he considered to be maintenance and sustainment tasks, in an effort to allow Disney employees to focus on innovation and new development. From my understanding and observation, though having the title of developer, some people did not have the skill set to perform those tasks. I feel that if you read between the lines you could see what the end game was.
curiousDog 11y ago
I've said this before and I will say it again, programming is an entry level job. A programming (Application development) career is definitely not something you want to grow old in (unless you're a rockstar which most of us aren't). Get an MBA while you can or start your own at a younger age.
zaczac 11y ago
"being forced to train their own replacements"? it is such spooky as H1-B workers are not able to be found in U.S. Put aside legality, it is almost cruel decision.
codex_irl 11y ago
Context maybe? http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-cancels-tech-worker-layoffs.html?referrer&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-...
ixtli 11y ago
I wonder why he's disabled sharing of the post.
- KeithBarrett 11y ago
  I usually do that when I share something sensitive or extremely personal, at least for the first day I share it. It forces the conversation with me.
  - ixtli 11y ago
    Oh I see. That's an interesting point. I only ask because when I copied the link into a new post I realized it was the only time I'd ever done that in years of using G+. In any case, as someone who's never really worked in a very large organization this post confirmed some of my previous suppositions about why I'd probably never be happy in one :/
mlrtime 11y ago
To voice your opinion, email guest.services@disneyworld.com. This was the reply I received: Dear Guest, Thank you for contacting us regarding recent media reports about the information technology restructuring at Disney Parks. We greatly value the contributions of our Cast Members. We take great pride in the fact that we have regularly been ranked as one of the best places to work in the United States, but we are always looking for ways to improve. Contrary to the misleading impression conveyed by certain media outlets, our recent IT restructuring actually resulted in the expansion of our Disney Parks IT team and the net addition of 70 new IT jobs in the United States. That's in addition to the nearly 30,000 jobs we've added in the U.S. over the last 10 years. And all of our efforts are geared toward enhancing our ability to deliver the best possible experiences for our Guests. We appreciate your feedback on this issue. Sincerely, Matthew Cooper Guest Experience Services Walt Disney World Resort
- iktl 11y ago
  Sadly, none of which says anything about the 70 new jobs and 30,000 jobs total added in the US being non-citizens. New jobs in the US != NOT H1B workers. Skillfully avoiding the topic, but I guess that's why he has that job. And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US.
  - pgrote 11y ago
    >>And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US. If you don't mind answering a question I've had about this process for a while, it'd be great. Does your contract end at some point? Do you have options to stay in the US employed by another company?
    - iktl 11y ago
      I'm an at-will employee, sponsored by my employer. I can transfer the visa to a new employer by resubmitting an LCA, but if I lose my job for whatever reason I have ten days to get a new job or I'm out of the country. Now... finding a job, getting an interview, having an offer made, accepting the offer, and getting the paperwork in? Good luck doing that in ten days.
gigawhat 11y ago
I used to rail against the H1-B program until I realized that the body-shop consultancies aren't hurting demand for my services. . . they're increasing it. It seems like at least 75% of the body-shop projects end up being so poorly executed that people like me inevitably get called in to revamp and clean up the mess. By all means, corporate America, keep giving out big projects to the lowest bidder, who will throw their international cheap labor at it. Then call me up to pick up the pieces in a year or two at my usual high rate, working from home 100%.
- ececconi 11y ago
  Then the project ends up being delivered late, over budget, then the middle-managers that signed off on it get replaced or reprimanded by the execs. Vicious cycle. If you see the way these body-shop projects are pitched, it's one of the few things that make me lose hope in humanity. They bring in an exec who pitches the project, undercuts the competition by about 50%, then they staff some PMs who have no idea what they're walking into.
  - sswaner 11y ago
    And if you sit through one of those pitch meetings, take note of who they bring along to demonstrate capability. Other than your account rep, you will never see any of those people during the actual project. You will be sent a bunch of "freshers" who are barely competent. The Center of Excellence (COE) staff are essentially technical pre-sales staff.
jobu 11y ago
This is a great line: "If you view your staff as a liability, it's more likely a leadership problem." If a company's employees are not an asset, then leadership hasn't done it's job of either weeding out the bad people or spending enough money to attract and grow good people.
- kamaal 11y ago
  In the same vein of argument, if you don't view your staff as liability or replaceable, you are likely running a very risky business.
- harimau 11y ago
  The leadership was able to increase their compensation 42% over the course of a year last year so, if that's what their focus is for this year, then maybe they are by cutting these folks, reducing costs, etc for whatever metrics get them more cash.
student123 11y ago
Yet another xenophobic article. What if disney hired an American contractor that replaced their old infrastructure with new age docker/cloud/YC-funded stack and were able to save costs by cutting 250 positions replacing them with 50 pure blooded americans (oh wait and another 10 pround "undocumented" immigrants). The reality is that this person is on the wrong side of efficiency argument. And he is just blaming his incompetence on others. I expect better from HN than to give voice to this xenophobic trash.
- KeithBarrett 11y ago
  No. I have no problem with outsourcing, or foreign labor. I've lead such efforts myself. I'm not a xenophobe. I've not in favor of scrapping H-1B Visas. It's easy for you to dismiss it by tossing labels. I'm not even angry or anti-Disney; I'm smart enough to see it for what it is. I've been in IT and a developer for a long time. I've seen it all. I didn't know how badly the H-1B system was being used to create labor forces for the maintenance of services instead of what it's for - bringing in hard to obtain talent, until I encountered it. Jobs are being lost to this, highly talented jobs, by the thousands, and it's not suppose to. It's suppose to augment your staff. Almost overnight 3/4ths of our office building were speaking a different language. Even if you don't see any of it that way; do you really think you'd approve if you had a good review, a raise, and then were told you're being replaced and you have to train your replacement or they're going to keep the severance you're entitled to by corporate policies? I don't think anyone sees that as professional or acceptable.
- patorjk 11y ago
  You're misunderstanding what people are upset about. The whole situation feels unfair and heartless. The employees had been doing a good job and they weren't given the option to take a pay cut to keep there jobs, instead they were given the option to quit or to work for a few months training their replacement. That kind of situation sounds horrible. The people who are replacing them can't move around as freely in the job market as normal individuals, so they're willing to work for less than someone who didn't have that restriction. And the program they're using to come over here wasn't established to replace jobs, so it being used like this seems unfair.
- 11y ago
suprgeek 11y ago
What Disney has done is certainly reprehensible but fully legal (given the "contractor" loophole in the H1-B program). However the backlash is focusing on the "them foreigners taking our Jobs" aspect a bit too much. What should be troubling is the fact that someone in the Executive Suite contracted out important IT functions (such as these jobs were I am assuming). If the CIO/CTO etc are perfectly wiling to disrupt core functions to shave off some costs - you have to wonder about the strategic abilities of these highly paid morons who cannot think past the next quarter. That is the real outrage - whether those outsourced jobs are done by H1-Bs (or even possibly L1-Bs who are much more prone to abuse) is the minor part of the story.
- graedus 11y ago
  > If the CIO/CTO etc are perfectly wiling to disrupt core functions to shave off some costs - you have to wonder about the strategic abilities of these highly paid morons who cannot think past the next quarter. Agree, but isn't this a broader issue with the system of incentives in a publicly traded corporation? The drive to sacrifice core capabilities in exchange for short term profits seems to be a widespread recurring problem.
- prostoalex 11y ago
  Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency. Why shouldn't they outsource it like any other business function?
  - suprgeek 11y ago
    >>Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency Given the crucial role IT plays in nearly all Disney enterprises (TV, Movies, theme parks, etc) they better make IT one of their core competencies.
    - prostoalex 11y ago
      The entity in question is the theme parks operator, not all IT departments across all Disney entities. Time will tell if Six Flags, Universal or SeaWorld would lock in significant advantages by having access to higher quality IT, while Disneyland/Disneyworld ticket sales would decline due to inferior IT.
nova22033 11y ago
>the financial sector is not known for being innovative in technology And the hospitality industry is?
ohmshalalala 11y ago
"When love, comes around, it picks you up, might let you down, just know, it might hurt, so adjust a little bit"
bayesianhorse 11y ago
Am I the only one that has any problem with the idea that citizens of a particular country feel more entitled to well paying jobs than comparably capable foreigners? I can understand the feeling, I just can't justify it by reason. It feels like these workers have more of a problem with the general low standards of worker's rights and labor protections than with H1B visa quotas...
- bruceb 11y ago
  Because the citizens and those that came before them have the history of the building up the country that has fostered a good standard of living, rights, environmental standards, etc. It is unsurprising they feel they are more entitled to the benefits than those outside the country who did not. It is a complex situation but that is the general gist.
  - bayesianhorse 11y ago
    So they have the right to a good life because they always had a good life? I can understand that such thinking is convenient, but especially those who are afraid of outsourcing haven't done that much "building" at all. And how come that in virtually any other regard competition and free enterprise is enshrined, even to the detriment of poor people and low income workers, but not when origin is concerned? For me this entitlement does not follow immediately from some kind of ancestral rights.
Simulacra 11y ago
Most has echoed my thoughts on this, but I wanted to jump in to offer this article from Cheat Sheet. I think it sums up quite well the view of modern corporations towards their employees. The main point being: If a corporation can increase their profits by screwing you, then they are more likely than not to do just that. "Your Employer Is Not Your Friend, and Young People Know It" By Nikelle Snader, www.cheatsheet.comView OriginalMay 31st, 2015 http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/your-employer-isnt-your-friend-and-millennials-know-it.html/?a=viewall http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/your-employer-isnt-your-f...
stephen-mw 11y ago
I think the H1B program is great when it works, and I've seen it function because I've worked with some amazing and talented workers from countries such as India, Spain, France, etc. I really felt like we nabbed the best people from those countries. For these engineers, the US should be stapling green cards to the backs of their pay checks. The problem here is that this group of workers is clearly being hired only because they provide a steep discount to local talent. This has nothing to do with skill, and in fact usually the engineers who take these positions are low-skilled. Think about it, who else would take a steep pay cut, work unreasonable hours, and take on a supervisor who threatens deportation on them? For every H1B we hire in this category we make it harder to bring and keep a skilled worker. They don't fit the mould of disposable and cheap labor, so they don't get sponsorship. They refuse to take a pay cut just because they're a foreigner, and rightly so.
nvm431 11y ago
jobvite.com did the same thing. They fired all their white developers and replaced them with Indians through a third party company. The irony.
dj_doh 11y ago
There are so many variables at play. Author is looking at it from a narrow window. I'd not blame him as this affects him personally. That said, what are some other variables? (1) Polyfill Disney is a global company and their management have to balance hundred different priorities that includes reducing HR cost. Don't be shocked if all of these H1B/L1 replacements are replaced by some highly automated systems in the next 5-10years. (2) Economics Ask yourself why are you using Uber over local taxi, Airbnb over Hilton, Target over Wholefoods? Be it corporation or individual, in all these cases, you are getting pretty much the same service at a reduced price. It's not a deal breaker when you are looking at replaceable cogs. (3) Enforcement There are some gray areas. H1Bs should be used where local resources are difficult to find or not at par with job requirements. Companies based in Bay Area, NYC, Boston, Austin, Houston and Denver face this problem day in and day out. I don't know how this spans out across the geography. (4) Skills If you are really good and someone who has been diligent about keeping his skills and knowledge up to date. You should have no problem finding your next gig. If you have a tendency to take the union mentality. That's probably not going to work. (5) Attitude I tried and failed to get a friend's resume across our recruiter. He is a former federal software engineer whose best skills read ~ COBOL and SQL. He is living in Bay Area, but refuses to try shops like Hack Reactor. Never stops blaming foreign workers. Somehow under the illusion that he has a birthright to that job. Taking your environment for granted is not wise.

150 points by bradneuberg 11y ago

nodata 11y ago

Better screengrab it before it disappears.

BaryonBundle 11y ago
This was posted 5 days ago...
KeithBarrett 11y ago
It won't disappear. I hate broken links.

dataker 11y ago

Like Americans, such unscrupulous program also ends up hurting genuinely talented and skilled foreign workers. Many 'consulting firms' end up hiring/slaving thousands of workers(hence using the H1-b quota), whereas others(not exploiting the loophole) end up not getting called on the lottery. A rational and realistic discussion is necessary, but most end up becoming too biased and extreme("don't let anyone come here").

justizin 11y ago

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1B Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." Anyone who still supports FWD.us and believes that the US doesn't produce enough professionals to satisfy the needs of our businesses is straight up, while they are reading this, actually holding a crack pipe to their mouth.

silverbax88 11y ago
I'm not clear (or arguing the point) about how this is specific to H-1B. Companies routinely lay off older, more expensive workers to get cheaper, younger employees. It's not what companies should do, but they do it all of the time. And then there's this, where apparently Disney cancelled the layoffs: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-cancels-tech-worker-layoffs.html?referrer=&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-... Which I don't see how that's entirely possible given that the article posted by OP specifically states that many employees were already let go in January. I can only speculate that the January layoffs were executed, and over the past week it was discovered that the 'replacement contractors' weren't the cheap magic rocket that Disney expected. That, too, happens in companies all of the time.
- jgoewert 11y ago
  Anyone else read the article with the nagging voice saying: "Oh crap, we got caught trying to really bend the H1B program and have irked our main customer base. We'd better say that we are undoing it then put a policy in place to more slowly drive out everyone making more than minimum wage by using bad reviews and implementing impossible goals. No one will notice if we do it slowly."
  - silverbax88 11y ago
    I saw (or just inferred) damage control. The 'Happiest Place on Earth' can't make headlines for laying people off. I mean, they still will lay people off, but they'll spin it like they are actually creating tons of jobs and everyone is super duper happy about it.
shas3 11y ago
Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443477104577551250082215534 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...
- melling 11y ago
  How do you determine what's "healthy"? Millions of Americans are caught in an endless cycle of poverty and we're fighting a $15 minimum wage. We've shipped millions of manufacturing jobs to China so it's harder to get a good job without a college education. Now we want to reduce the salaries of well-paid jobs by onshoring them. I'd say we should take a closer look at what we're actually doing.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    Wouldn't raising the minimum was make shipping jobs to China even more attractive?
    - Frondo 11y ago
      No, because you can't ship a Burger King job to China.
      - Shivetya 11y ago
        why is a job flipping burgers worth 30k? by running up the cost of unskilled labor pressure is put upon those who need skilled labor and many of those jobs can go overseas
        Frondo 11y ago
        Why? Because we (as in "we the people") decide it is so? Remember, the government, and all its laws, derives its power from us, not the other way 'round.
shas3 11y ago
Protectionism doesn't work. There is wide consensus among economists on comparative advantage [1]. Healthy, non-protectionist immigration policies have been proposed to have similar effects as free trade [2,3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage [2] http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf http://www.economics.uci.edu/files/docs/micro/s07/Peri.pdf [3] http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443477104577551250082215534 http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100008723963904434771045775512...
cbsmith 11y ago
....because they could have done this without an H-1B Visa program, and in fact, even in the hospitality service, they probably could move a lot of those jobs flat out overseas. Arguably the H-1B Visa program at least keeps the US labour market somewhat competitive with the overseas markets. No, there are a bunch of problems here, but access to immigrant labour on domestic soil isn't really even near the top of my list.
teacup50 11y ago
The "crack pipe" is in believing that these two situations are equivalent: - Disney replacing IT staff in bulk with outsourced workers. - A small (or large) technology firm wanting to hire a specific, highly qualified, but just happens to be foreign-born worker. The outsourcing companies consume so much of the H1-B pool that the people who want to use it correctly can't, and then people like you start talking about crack pipes.
makeitsuckless 11y ago
I believe the US, or any other Western nation, doesn't produce enough professionals to satisfy the needs of our businesses. (Source: I'm a hiring manager.) I also believe however that this situation is being abused to suppress wages by bringing in underpaid labour in a market that already needs a big upward salary correction to account for the shortage and economic value of these professionals. Abusing and manipulating the problem out of short term self-interest doesn't mean there isn't a problem. In fact it's a very common pattern. See for instance the war on drugs. Denial is not a strategy.

coldcode 11y ago

"... and they routinely sacrificed personal time and freedoms to help make your experience in the parks what it was". Never do this unless its a startup you own. You get paid for X to do Y hours and nothing more. Anything more is volunteer work for a for-profit employer.

kogus 11y ago
That's a pretty cynical attitude. It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally about the success of whatever they are doing. You don't have a moral obligation to bend over backwards for a company, but it's ok to be committed for reasons other than a paycheck.
- fixermark 11y ago
  Stories like this one justify the cynical attitude. Corporations are not family. I personally transitioned from startup life to big-corporation specifically because the expectation to pull nights and weekends was physically burning a hole in my stomach. I will put in extra when requested of me, but I now take a much, much more critical attitude towards such requests; when you work for a publicly-traded company that has to report its balances to the SEC, it's pretty hard for them to claim poverty when they ask more of you.
- dspillett 11y ago
  > It's definitely possible to work for a for-profit company and still care personally It is certainly possible, and usually very much appreciated (sometimes even rewarded) in the short term. Just don't expect it to make much difference to how you are treated over the longer term. The company won't forget that you are an employee and you shouldn't either. Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally obliged to screw you over if it is better for the company to do so than not.
  - yourapostasy 11y ago
    > Heck, a company with shareholders is practically legally obliged to... You are spreading the myth of a US (and most nations, for that matter) legal obligation (the term of art is "fiduciary duty") of profit maximization to shareholders. Please read the following. http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-companies-legally-obligated-to-maximize-profits-for-shareholders http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-com... http://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-value-myth/ http://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2012/06/26/the-shareholder-va... https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism https://hbr.org/2010/04/the-myth-of-shareholder-capitalism If you are an attorney, then in the past somewhere on Harvard Law's site I found an exhaustively-written piece that gives specific case law citations I could cross-reference from Lexis-Nexis. The bar to clear to prove fiduciary malfeasance in corporate governance is very high, and the latitude granted to company management very broad; shareholders can enforce a fiduciary preference through shareholder activism and throw out management, but the US judiciary has steadfastly refused to lightly step into the management-shareholder relationship in this regard. This blog post delves into the follow-on questions more in the vein of corporate social responsibility once you acknowledge the legal reality. http://www.robertstavinsblog.org/2009/05/12/straight-talk-about-corporate-social-responsibility/ http://www.robertstavinsblog.org/2009/05/12/straight-talk-ab...

kirinan 11y ago

I usually don't comment on immigration policies because I'm a US citizen and have never been an immigrant worker, however I dont believe this affects the long term success or failure of the H1B visa program and nor should it. We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. If a company feels that they can get equal talent to mine in another country for cheaper costs then so be it; I didn't do a good enough job selling my talent or showing why Im worth my rate. Its also the company's loss if they chose to lay me off; I know what Im worth and Ill go find what Im worth. Even without the H1B visa program, companies will still do this; whether or not the company can employ the employee on US soil or not. This is in no way threatening to my way of life or makes me fear for my future career prospects. It sucks that Disney did this to their employees, but companies are no longer loyal to their people and haven't been for a long time; you should act accordingly and not show any loyalty to a company that shows you none.

jbrooksuk 11y ago
"They had good performance reviews and none expected to be told they were being let go 90 days later." I think they all showed their worth, otherwise they'd have not had good reviews...
matwood 11y ago
> We do exist in a global economy and you must therefore compete globally. I completely agree, but that's not what the H1-B visa program does. It allows companies to lock in immigrant workers at a lower rate and little to no job mobility. From a companies standpoint it is obviously what they want - pay less, and job lock in! The fix for the H1-B is true immigration reform. We need to make it easy for people to come to the US and enter the job market just like anyone else.
- theklub 11y ago
  Why do we need to make it easy for people to come take our jobs? Why would we do that?
  - someone7x 11y ago

ThePhysicist 11y ago

"I'm sharing news about it because this experience has taught me the H-1b Visa program needs to change to protect others in the future." It's surprising to me that Disney was able to replace its local workforce by foreigners via H-1b visas, since I always thought that companies making use of this type of visa were required to prove that they would not be able to find an employee with the required qualifications in the US? Firing an employee to replace him with an H-1b holder seems to completely contradict this requirement. Also, reading the visa requirements it seems that the company would be forced to pay an H-1b employee a salary which is equivalent to that payed to a "normal" employee performing the same function, so there does not seem to be a huge financial benefit in this either. Can anyone explain this?

protomyth 11y ago
They hired them through a third-party, thus Disney had to justify nothing. Look at the list of H1B awards and you'll see the big body shops.
- pgrote 11y ago
  I am having trouble understanding your point and hoping you can clarify it. Disney contracted with this company to perform this action. Isn't Disney responsible for accepting these actions?
  - Balgair 11y ago
    So Disney contracts out the work to these body shops. The H1-B guy is an employee of the contracted-to firm, not of Disney. Disney is simply contracting out the work to a cheaper company. The contracted-to company says they can't find the workers, has enough lawyers to actually prove it, hires H1-Bs, and then contracts them to Disney.
  - exelius 11y ago
    Disney doesn't ask questions about how people are procured. From Disney's perspective, they're just hiring a company to take over technical operations and support. Technology is honestly not Disney's core competency, so it makes sense to outsource to someone who can do the same work with a lower cost base because it IS their core competency. They just have to sign a contract with Cognizant/Wipro/Infosys/etc that says they will provide managed services covering X, Y and Z products for $X million per year. Managed services contracts allow a contractor to have near complete control over personnel decisions; the client doesn't ask questions about how they can do it so cheap because they have no say in the matter anyway. Managed services contracts are managed against SLAs, so as long as you meet your SLAs, you get paid.

zeruch 11y ago

Having worked in an industry that supported Disney as a client once in my career, I find that whole firm contemptible, and this behavior doesn't surprise me at all.

monatron 11y ago

Can someone provide some context to this post? What happened at Disney?

anon987 11y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9653389 The story was flagged/shadowbanned to the 2nd page within an hour of it's submission despite it being on topic and having 200+ upvotes.

dwightgunning 11y ago

What exactly happened here? Reading between the lines it sounds like Disney are executing an outsourced IT transformation involving offshore IT application delivery (maybe maintenance, IT ops etc.)? Flying in staff from offshore teams to shadow/train with the team being reorganised is standard practice from what I've seen. It isn't pretty but it's not like Disney are breaking new ground here...

nibbles123 11y ago
That's what happened. I worked at Disney Technology during the new CIO's reign, but left for another opportunity a few months prior to the layoffs. Tilak Mandadi (Disney CIO) stated that there would be efforts to onboard contract employees to take over what he considered to be maintenance and sustainment tasks, in an effort to allow Disney employees to focus on innovation and new development. From my understanding and observation, though having the title of developer, some people did not have the skill set to perform those tasks. I feel that if you read between the lines you could see what the end game was.

curiousDog 11y ago

I've said this before and I will say it again, programming is an entry level job. A programming (Application development) career is definitely not something you want to grow old in (unless you're a rockstar which most of us aren't). Get an MBA while you can or start your own at a younger age.

zaczac 11y ago

"being forced to train their own replacements"? it is such spooky as H1-B workers are not able to be found in U.S. Put aside legality, it is almost cruel decision.

codex_irl 11y ago

Context maybe? http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-cancels-tech-worker-layoffs.html?referrer&_r=0 http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/in-turnabout-disney-...

ixtli 11y ago

I wonder why he's disabled sharing of the post.

KeithBarrett 11y ago
I usually do that when I share something sensitive or extremely personal, at least for the first day I share it. It forces the conversation with me.
- ixtli 11y ago
  Oh I see. That's an interesting point. I only ask because when I copied the link into a new post I realized it was the only time I'd ever done that in years of using G+. In any case, as someone who's never really worked in a very large organization this post confirmed some of my previous suppositions about why I'd probably never be happy in one :/

mlrtime 11y ago

To voice your opinion, email guest.services@disneyworld.com. This was the reply I received: Dear Guest, Thank you for contacting us regarding recent media reports about the information technology restructuring at Disney Parks. We greatly value the contributions of our Cast Members. We take great pride in the fact that we have regularly been ranked as one of the best places to work in the United States, but we are always looking for ways to improve. Contrary to the misleading impression conveyed by certain media outlets, our recent IT restructuring actually resulted in the expansion of our Disney Parks IT team and the net addition of 70 new IT jobs in the United States. That's in addition to the nearly 30,000 jobs we've added in the U.S. over the last 10 years. And all of our efforts are geared toward enhancing our ability to deliver the best possible experiences for our Guests. We appreciate your feedback on this issue. Sincerely, Matthew Cooper Guest Experience Services Walt Disney World Resort

iktl 11y ago
Sadly, none of which says anything about the 70 new jobs and 30,000 jobs total added in the US being non-citizens. New jobs in the US != NOT H1B workers. Skillfully avoiding the topic, but I guess that's why he has that job. And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US.
- pgrote 11y ago
  >>And I say this as a non-citizen working in the US. If you don't mind answering a question I've had about this process for a while, it'd be great. Does your contract end at some point? Do you have options to stay in the US employed by another company?
  - iktl 11y ago
    I'm an at-will employee, sponsored by my employer. I can transfer the visa to a new employer by resubmitting an LCA, but if I lose my job for whatever reason I have ten days to get a new job or I'm out of the country. Now... finding a job, getting an interview, having an offer made, accepting the offer, and getting the paperwork in? Good luck doing that in ten days.

gigawhat 11y ago

I used to rail against the H1-B program until I realized that the body-shop consultancies aren't hurting demand for my services. . . they're increasing it. It seems like at least 75% of the body-shop projects end up being so poorly executed that people like me inevitably get called in to revamp and clean up the mess. By all means, corporate America, keep giving out big projects to the lowest bidder, who will throw their international cheap labor at it. Then call me up to pick up the pieces in a year or two at my usual high rate, working from home 100%.

ececconi 11y ago
Then the project ends up being delivered late, over budget, then the middle-managers that signed off on it get replaced or reprimanded by the execs. Vicious cycle. If you see the way these body-shop projects are pitched, it's one of the few things that make me lose hope in humanity. They bring in an exec who pitches the project, undercuts the competition by about 50%, then they staff some PMs who have no idea what they're walking into.
- sswaner 11y ago
  And if you sit through one of those pitch meetings, take note of who they bring along to demonstrate capability. Other than your account rep, you will never see any of those people during the actual project. You will be sent a bunch of "freshers" who are barely competent. The Center of Excellence (COE) staff are essentially technical pre-sales staff.

jobu 11y ago

This is a great line: "If you view your staff as a liability, it's more likely a leadership problem." If a company's employees are not an asset, then leadership hasn't done it's job of either weeding out the bad people or spending enough money to attract and grow good people.

kamaal 11y ago
In the same vein of argument, if you don't view your staff as liability or replaceable, you are likely running a very risky business.
harimau 11y ago
The leadership was able to increase their compensation 42% over the course of a year last year so, if that's what their focus is for this year, then maybe they are by cutting these folks, reducing costs, etc for whatever metrics get them more cash.

student123 11y ago

Yet another xenophobic article. What if disney hired an American contractor that replaced their old infrastructure with new age docker/cloud/YC-funded stack and were able to save costs by cutting 250 positions replacing them with 50 pure blooded americans (oh wait and another 10 pround "undocumented" immigrants). The reality is that this person is on the wrong side of efficiency argument. And he is just blaming his incompetence on others. I expect better from HN than to give voice to this xenophobic trash.

KeithBarrett 11y ago
No. I have no problem with outsourcing, or foreign labor. I've lead such efforts myself. I'm not a xenophobe. I've not in favor of scrapping H-1B Visas. It's easy for you to dismiss it by tossing labels. I'm not even angry or anti-Disney; I'm smart enough to see it for what it is. I've been in IT and a developer for a long time. I've seen it all. I didn't know how badly the H-1B system was being used to create labor forces for the maintenance of services instead of what it's for - bringing in hard to obtain talent, until I encountered it. Jobs are being lost to this, highly talented jobs, by the thousands, and it's not suppose to. It's suppose to augment your staff. Almost overnight 3/4ths of our office building were speaking a different language. Even if you don't see any of it that way; do you really think you'd approve if you had a good review, a raise, and then were told you're being replaced and you have to train your replacement or they're going to keep the severance you're entitled to by corporate policies? I don't think anyone sees that as professional or acceptable.
patorjk 11y ago
You're misunderstanding what people are upset about. The whole situation feels unfair and heartless. The employees had been doing a good job and they weren't given the option to take a pay cut to keep there jobs, instead they were given the option to quit or to work for a few months training their replacement. That kind of situation sounds horrible. The people who are replacing them can't move around as freely in the job market as normal individuals, so they're willing to work for less than someone who didn't have that restriction. And the program they're using to come over here wasn't established to replace jobs, so it being used like this seems unfair.
11y ago

suprgeek 11y ago

What Disney has done is certainly reprehensible but fully legal (given the "contractor" loophole in the H1-B program). However the backlash is focusing on the "them foreigners taking our Jobs" aspect a bit too much. What should be troubling is the fact that someone in the Executive Suite contracted out important IT functions (such as these jobs were I am assuming). If the CIO/CTO etc are perfectly wiling to disrupt core functions to shave off some costs - you have to wonder about the strategic abilities of these highly paid morons who cannot think past the next quarter. That is the real outrage - whether those outsourced jobs are done by H1-Bs (or even possibly L1-Bs who are much more prone to abuse) is the minor part of the story.

graedus 11y ago
> If the CIO/CTO etc are perfectly wiling to disrupt core functions to shave off some costs - you have to wonder about the strategic abilities of these highly paid morons who cannot think past the next quarter. Agree, but isn't this a broader issue with the system of incentives in a publicly traded corporation? The drive to sacrifice core capabilities in exchange for short term profits seems to be a widespread recurring problem.
prostoalex 11y ago
Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency. Why shouldn't they outsource it like any other business function?
- suprgeek 11y ago
  >>Disney is not an IT company, and IT is not their core competency Given the crucial role IT plays in nearly all Disney enterprises (TV, Movies, theme parks, etc) they better make IT one of their core competencies.
  - prostoalex 11y ago
    The entity in question is the theme parks operator, not all IT departments across all Disney entities. Time will tell if Six Flags, Universal or SeaWorld would lock in significant advantages by having access to higher quality IT, while Disneyland/Disneyworld ticket sales would decline due to inferior IT.

nova22033 11y ago

>the financial sector is not known for being innovative in technology And the hospitality industry is?

ohmshalalala 11y ago

"When love, comes around, it picks you up, might let you down, just know, it might hurt, so adjust a little bit"

bayesianhorse 11y ago

Am I the only one that has any problem with the idea that citizens of a particular country feel more entitled to well paying jobs than comparably capable foreigners? I can understand the feeling, I just can't justify it by reason. It feels like these workers have more of a problem with the general low standards of worker's rights and labor protections than with H1B visa quotas...

bruceb 11y ago
Because the citizens and those that came before them have the history of the building up the country that has fostered a good standard of living, rights, environmental standards, etc. It is unsurprising they feel they are more entitled to the benefits than those outside the country who did not. It is a complex situation but that is the general gist.
- bayesianhorse 11y ago
  So they have the right to a good life because they always had a good life? I can understand that such thinking is convenient, but especially those who are afraid of outsourcing haven't done that much "building" at all. And how come that in virtually any other regard competition and free enterprise is enshrined, even to the detriment of poor people and low income workers, but not when origin is concerned? For me this entitlement does not follow immediately from some kind of ancestral rights.

Simulacra 11y ago

Most has echoed my thoughts on this, but I wanted to jump in to offer this article from Cheat Sheet. I think it sums up quite well the view of modern corporations towards their employees. The main point being: If a corporation can increase their profits by screwing you, then they are more likely than not to do just that. "Your Employer Is Not Your Friend, and Young People Know It" By Nikelle Snader, www.cheatsheet.comView OriginalMay 31st, 2015 http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/your-employer-isnt-your-friend-and-millennials-know-it.html/?a=viewall http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/your-employer-isnt-your-f...

stephen-mw 11y ago

I think the H1B program is great when it works, and I've seen it function because I've worked with some amazing and talented workers from countries such as India, Spain, France, etc. I really felt like we nabbed the best people from those countries. For these engineers, the US should be stapling green cards to the backs of their pay checks. The problem here is that this group of workers is clearly being hired only because they provide a steep discount to local talent. This has nothing to do with skill, and in fact usually the engineers who take these positions are low-skilled. Think about it, who else would take a steep pay cut, work unreasonable hours, and take on a supervisor who threatens deportation on them? For every H1B we hire in this category we make it harder to bring and keep a skilled worker. They don't fit the mould of disposable and cheap labor, so they don't get sponsorship. They refuse to take a pay cut just because they're a foreigner, and rightly so.

nvm431 11y ago

jobvite.com did the same thing. They fired all their white developers and replaced them with Indians through a third party company. The irony.

dj_doh 11y ago

There are so many variables at play. Author is looking at it from a narrow window. I'd not blame him as this affects him personally. That said, what are some other variables? (1) Polyfill Disney is a global company and their management have to balance hundred different priorities that includes reducing HR cost. Don't be shocked if all of these H1B/L1 replacements are replaced by some highly automated systems in the next 5-10years. (2) Economics Ask yourself why are you using Uber over local taxi, Airbnb over Hilton, Target over Wholefoods? Be it corporation or individual, in all these cases, you are getting pretty much the same service at a reduced price. It's not a deal breaker when you are looking at replaceable cogs. (3) Enforcement There are some gray areas. H1Bs should be used where local resources are difficult to find or not at par with job requirements. Companies based in Bay Area, NYC, Boston, Austin, Houston and Denver face this problem day in and day out. I don't know how this spans out across the geography. (4) Skills If you are really good and someone who has been diligent about keeping his skills and knowledge up to date. You should have no problem finding your next gig. If you have a tendency to take the union mentality. That's probably not going to work. (5) Attitude I tried and failed to get a friend's resume across our recruiter. He is a former federal software engineer whose best skills read ~ COBOL and SQL. He is living in Bay Area, but refuses to try shops like Hack Reactor. Never stops blaming foreign workers. Somehow under the illusion that he has a birthright to that job. Taking your environment for granted is not wise.