6 ms·

I advise not reading that bug, some of the later comments will give you brain cancer. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=786909#51 https://bugs.

by rockdoe 11y ago

I advise not reading that bug, some of the later comments will give you brain cancer. https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=786909#51 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=786909#51 Downvotes? So you agree with this? "I seriously consider the good faith of an such upstream which does these kinds of things" "But basically secretly downloading it leads to the question of possible malicious intent (and everyone knows that Google&Co. do voluntarily and/or forcibly cooperate with NSA and friends)." "while I haven't looked at the code, I wouldn't even be surprised if the downloading itself is done insecurely." "Worse, chromium isn't the only such rootkit-downloader,... e.g. FF which secretly downloaded the OpenH264 blob." Really if you condone this attitude then I can only say...well I won't say it but it isn't nice. Not only that, everyone seemingly ignores the: "Note that the binary blob is executed throught native client, which is not enabled by default" part. You people are so beyond reasonableness I find myself defending Chrome/Google. I can't believe this.

lambada 11y ago
By 'some' you mean 'one'.
BRG_12 11y ago
This guy is actually perfectly right. Google doesn't do thing like that by accident. I'm glad there are some sharp guys around to disclose such potentially malicious behavior.
- rockdoe 11y ago
  Do what by accident? Of course the intent was to include the blob. If Debian wants to get rid of it it should patch Chromium or request it to be made configurable (which is what happened). But the tinfoil hattery is completely baseless.
  - buster 11y ago
    But you do understand that Chromium is supposed to be open source, right? So, if the intent was to include a binary, closed source blob into an open source project, that could be called malicious.
    - rockdoe 11y ago
      It was very much the intent: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=491435 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=491435 Chromium is and has always been an open source project in name only.
      - marrs 11y ago
        You mean, you couldn't compile it from source, modify the source code and distribute your modifications freely to others?
        fluidcruft 11y ago
        No, he means Chromium (like Android) in practice are read-only, hostile projects that respond only to Google's needs. Yes, you are free to create a fork. In reality, it's nearly impossible to keep up with Google's development pace and their behavior of dumping huge changesets and lack of documentation and communication wears everyone out. If you have some exposure to biology/ecology you'll recognize the behavior as very effective at killing off diversity in ecosystems. It's like trying to co-exist on a lake with someone that keeps deliberately causing giant algal blooms.
        jsight 11y ago
        Oh ok. So it would be more open source if the upstream vendor contributed less.
        rockdoe 11y ago
        Which part of "their behavior of dumping huge changesets and lack of documentation and communication wears everyone out." is not clear to you?
        magicalist 11y ago
        > No, he means Chromium (like Android) in practice are read-only, hostile projects that respond only to Google's needs. Huh? You've obviously never involved yourself in Chromium development. It's easy to get started and to stay up to date. As with all massive projects it takes work to do so, but no more so than any of the other open source browsers.
- dtech 11y ago
  Even if malice instead of incompetence is involved, it goes pretty far to call Chromium a "rootkit-downloader" just because it downloads a binary blob. It could theoretically be a rootkit, but without any evidence to support it this is like calling someone a murderer because he went to the same high school as a murderer.
  - morganvachon 11y ago
    > without any evidence to support it this is like calling someone a murderer because he went to the same high school as a murderer. That's a pretty flawed analogy. If you're going to examine it from a criminal act point of view, let's really look at it that way. If installing a rootkit is equivalent to premeditated murder, then the murderer must have motive, means, and opportunity. Let's take Sony as a good example of a company guilty of installing a rootkit. Motive: Prevent unauthorized copying of their music CDs. Means: Rootkit is embedded in the audio CD and uses Windows' Autoplay feature to install itself. Opportunity: They didn't disclose this rootkit so anyone who bought a Sony audio CD during that era was vulnerable. Now, let's look at what we know about this Chromium binary blob silent install (note I'm not calling it a rootkit, as I agree with you that's taking it a bit far, but it would theoretically be possible to install one via the same method). Motive: Google wants to put the same always-listening "feature" on Chromium installs as well as plain old Chrome. Means: Google writes and publishes the Chromium source code. Opportunity: Just guessing here, but Google releases this change without announcing it (otherwise why didn't the Debian packagers see it right away?). Now, once again I'm in agreement with you that calling this a rootkit downloader is a bit much. But what if it had actually been a rootkit, inserted by Google either intentionally (I don't trust them, but honestly why would they do something that nefarious?), or without their knowledge or consent (which would mean they are compromised by an outside actor). That is why this is such a big deal, and kudos to the Debian team for finding it. It also bothers me that this binary blob, while not actually a rootkit, did have the ability to listen to the computer's microphone 24/7 (yes, that is a "feature" as it is part of Google Now), and can't be audited because there is no publicly available source code. That's quite a security hole; I recall discussing all kinds of financial and personal matters with my wife right in front of our computers. Thankfully they are both desktop machines without built in microphones, but many people these days use laptops as their main computer. To sum up, I don't like it and I think it's a shitty thing for Google to do. Whether it was intended to be a silent install instead of public knowledge, or just a major gaffe, remains to be seen.
kibibu 11y ago
I think it's totally reasonable, from the Debian mindset. Debian is an open-source zero-binary-blob distribution. You have to deliberately choose to install binary blobs, such as driver firmware etc. It is the dismissive response which is not appropriate. The responder asserts that the blob is safe and trustworthy, how would anybody know?.
luso_brazilian 11y ago
The tone was inflammatory but the sentiment is valid. Quoting: Since no one really know which binaries have been downloaded there and what they actually do, and since it cannot be excluded that it was actually executed, such systems are basically to be considered compromised A closed source binary being silently downloaded and executed without explicit action by the user or notification to the same is a security incident. Many people are used to it because of all the training received by the "Java Auto Update", "Google Update Helper" and similar software receiving blank permission to monitor, download and execute closed source software with the same permission as the logged in user. Despite of that a person that goes to the lengths of using Debian (instead of Ubuntu) and Chromium instead of Chrome certainly expects more from their sources than to allow this kind of behaviour. It is a security incident and should be treated as one both by Debian and by the community in general.
- roel_v 11y ago
  "A closed source binary being silently downloaded and executed without explicit action by the user or notification to the same is a security incident." Whereas source code being downloaded, compiled and run is not? Or a script being downloaded and run?
  - vbezhenar 11y ago
    You can't realistically audit binary blob. But you can audit source code. So if download is protected by the digital signature, it's OK.
    - mavhc 11y ago
      You can't realistically audit the Chromium source code either.
      - shit_parade2 11y ago
        ? Why do you think people are discussing this, might it be because, gasp, the source code is being audited?
scbrg 11y ago
> Downvotes? So you agree with this? Whether we agree or not is not really relevant. Advising people to not read a bug report because one of the comments in the discussion associated with the report doesn't appeal to you is... strange, to say the least. How do you manage any kind of discussion format if opinions (however wrong they may be) you don't like make you leave the discussion entirely?
- rockdoe 11y ago
  On the contrary, sometimes ignoring the discussion is the only way to stay sane and make progress because there are an infinite number of people with "opinions". In this case the original report is informative, what comes after (up to 2 posts now) probably isn't going to be.

by rockdoe 11y ago

lambada 11y ago

By 'some' you mean 'one'.

BRG_12 11y ago

This guy is actually perfectly right. Google doesn't do thing like that by accident. I'm glad there are some sharp guys around to disclose such potentially malicious behavior.

rockdoe 11y ago
Do what by accident? Of course the intent was to include the blob. If Debian wants to get rid of it it should patch Chromium or request it to be made configurable (which is what happened). But the tinfoil hattery is completely baseless.
- buster 11y ago
  But you do understand that Chromium is supposed to be open source, right? So, if the intent was to include a binary, closed source blob into an open source project, that could be called malicious.
  - rockdoe 11y ago
    It was very much the intent: https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=491435 https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=491435 Chromium is and has always been an open source project in name only.
    - marrs 11y ago
      You mean, you couldn't compile it from source, modify the source code and distribute your modifications freely to others?
      - fluidcruft 11y ago
        No, he means Chromium (like Android) in practice are read-only, hostile projects that respond only to Google's needs. Yes, you are free to create a fork. In reality, it's nearly impossible to keep up with Google's development pace and their behavior of dumping huge changesets and lack of documentation and communication wears everyone out. If you have some exposure to biology/ecology you'll recognize the behavior as very effective at killing off diversity in ecosystems. It's like trying to co-exist on a lake with someone that keeps deliberately causing giant algal blooms.
        jsight 11y ago
        Oh ok. So it would be more open source if the upstream vendor contributed less.
        rockdoe 11y ago
        Which part of "their behavior of dumping huge changesets and lack of documentation and communication wears everyone out." is not clear to you?
        magicalist 11y ago
        > No, he means Chromium (like Android) in practice are read-only, hostile projects that respond only to Google's needs. Huh? You've obviously never involved yourself in Chromium development. It's easy to get started and to stay up to date. As with all massive projects it takes work to do so, but no more so than any of the other open source browsers.
dtech 11y ago
Even if malice instead of incompetence is involved, it goes pretty far to call Chromium a "rootkit-downloader" just because it downloads a binary blob. It could theoretically be a rootkit, but without any evidence to support it this is like calling someone a murderer because he went to the same high school as a murderer.
- morganvachon 11y ago
  > without any evidence to support it this is like calling someone a murderer because he went to the same high school as a murderer. That's a pretty flawed analogy. If you're going to examine it from a criminal act point of view, let's really look at it that way. If installing a rootkit is equivalent to premeditated murder, then the murderer must have motive, means, and opportunity. Let's take Sony as a good example of a company guilty of installing a rootkit. Motive: Prevent unauthorized copying of their music CDs. Means: Rootkit is embedded in the audio CD and uses Windows' Autoplay feature to install itself. Opportunity: They didn't disclose this rootkit so anyone who bought a Sony audio CD during that era was vulnerable. Now, let's look at what we know about this Chromium binary blob silent install (note I'm not calling it a rootkit, as I agree with you that's taking it a bit far, but it would theoretically be possible to install one via the same method). Motive: Google wants to put the same always-listening "feature" on Chromium installs as well as plain old Chrome. Means: Google writes and publishes the Chromium source code. Opportunity: Just guessing here, but Google releases this change without announcing it (otherwise why didn't the Debian packagers see it right away?). Now, once again I'm in agreement with you that calling this a rootkit downloader is a bit much. But what if it had actually been a rootkit, inserted by Google either intentionally (I don't trust them, but honestly why would they do something that nefarious?), or without their knowledge or consent (which would mean they are compromised by an outside actor). That is why this is such a big deal, and kudos to the Debian team for finding it. It also bothers me that this binary blob, while not actually a rootkit, did have the ability to listen to the computer's microphone 24/7 (yes, that is a "feature" as it is part of Google Now), and can't be audited because there is no publicly available source code. That's quite a security hole; I recall discussing all kinds of financial and personal matters with my wife right in front of our computers. Thankfully they are both desktop machines without built in microphones, but many people these days use laptops as their main computer. To sum up, I don't like it and I think it's a shitty thing for Google to do. Whether it was intended to be a silent install instead of public knowledge, or just a major gaffe, remains to be seen.

kibibu 11y ago

I think it's totally reasonable, from the Debian mindset. Debian is an open-source zero-binary-blob distribution. You have to deliberately choose to install binary blobs, such as driver firmware etc. It is the dismissive response which is not appropriate. The responder asserts that the blob is safe and trustworthy, how would anybody know?.

luso_brazilian 11y ago

The tone was inflammatory but the sentiment is valid. Quoting: Since no one really know which binaries have been downloaded there and what they actually do, and since it cannot be excluded that it was actually executed, such systems are basically to be considered compromised A closed source binary being silently downloaded and executed without explicit action by the user or notification to the same is a security incident. Many people are used to it because of all the training received by the "Java Auto Update", "Google Update Helper" and similar software receiving blank permission to monitor, download and execute closed source software with the same permission as the logged in user. Despite of that a person that goes to the lengths of using Debian (instead of Ubuntu) and Chromium instead of Chrome certainly expects more from their sources than to allow this kind of behaviour. It is a security incident and should be treated as one both by Debian and by the community in general.

roel_v 11y ago
"A closed source binary being silently downloaded and executed without explicit action by the user or notification to the same is a security incident." Whereas source code being downloaded, compiled and run is not? Or a script being downloaded and run?
- vbezhenar 11y ago
  You can't realistically audit binary blob. But you can audit source code. So if download is protected by the digital signature, it's OK.
  - mavhc 11y ago
    You can't realistically audit the Chromium source code either.
    - shit_parade2 11y ago
      ? Why do you think people are discussing this, might it be because, gasp, the source code is being audited?

scbrg 11y ago

> Downvotes? So you agree with this? Whether we agree or not is not really relevant. Advising people to not read a bug report because one of the comments in the discussion associated with the report doesn't appeal to you is... strange, to say the least. How do you manage any kind of discussion format if opinions (however wrong they may be) you don't like make you leave the discussion entirely?

rockdoe 11y ago
On the contrary, sometimes ignoring the discussion is the only way to stay sane and make progress because there are an infinite number of people with "opinions". In this case the original report is informative, what comes after (up to 2 posts now) probably isn't going to be.