7 ms·

This is why I always loath buying a new laptop. The first thing I have to do is look at the keyboard layout. Where did these designers try to fit the cursor key

by Todd 11y ago

This is why I always loath buying a new laptop. The first thing I have to do is look at the keyboard layout. Where did these designers try to fit the cursor keys this time? Where did they try to innovate on space efficiency using those 'disposable' keys: Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Ins/Del? I learned on an IBM compatible 101 (now 104) keyboard. I trained my hands against the 'correct' cursor management key layout: the inverted-T and the cluster above. It's not optimal, but neither is the saxophone. That said, you don't see too many saxophone designers changing the placement of the keys or inventing new fingerings. Not so for keyboards. Most of the innovation happens because of some industrial design requirement or some designer's whim (e.g., why do we still have this insert key here? Nobody uses it! Let's get rid of it and add a larger delete key). I'm not referring to the more interesting innovation happening on behalf of heavy keyboard users, like those mentioned in the article. It used to be somewhat difficult to find modern 101/104 keyboards. I thank the code gods often, now that we have such a rich ecosystem around conventional keyboard designs. I now have a problem where I look for an excuse to buy a new keyboard to try out for one of the spots that I program at frequently, so I can just move my laptop and plug in. My favorite so far is the Cooler Master QuickFire Tenkeyless.

fit2rule 11y ago
What I love doing - re-training myself to use a PC-101 keyboard after a week or some days using the rMBP on the road .. nothing funks up my flow more (in a good way) than going from the hotkeys of OSX to those of a moderately standard fvwm-based Linux desktop, and having a full keyboard switch-up to boot. I kind of think such small experiences are good for you, so I delight in it happening when it does .. However, it terrifies me to use my friends' Dell and Lenovo machines, the key placement is often perplexing. I somehow think the layout is intended to bond the user to the platform, though, and few companies apply that as succinctly than Apple.
- Todd 11y ago
  Agreed. I often have to use my laptop keyboard, as I'm sure everyone else does. That does make it a luxurious experience to get back to my mechanical keyboard (and external monitors). I look forward to getting back to my cave. Good perspective.
- McUsr 11y ago
  I switch the capslock and the control key, so that I have a fairly standard 101 XT key keyboard layout. I also "flip" the function keys, so that I have to press fn-f12 to increase the volume. I do that through keyboard pane of System Preferences. ctrl-F4 is then a goodie, that switches windows through the z-window buffer, independendt of the App. You can also mod your keyboard layouot through the cocoa text system, and then you all of suddenly have keys like ctrl-shift a and ctrl-E, ctrl-G (cancel) that works every where. I basically have emulated most of emacs in my modification of the cocoa text system, so that it works in every app that uses the cocoa text system. I have also bound up a lot of automator services to the free combinations of function/modifier keys. I am a happy user.
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  For some years now, I've used Windows/Linux on the desktop and a Mac laptop. I no longer have trouble switching between those two, but I get all screwed up when I try to use somebody's Windows laptop...
discreteevent 11y ago
laptops are a pain. I wrote a windows keyboard hook that users caps lock with ijkl for arrows u->home ;->end and space bar fort modal select. A bit like ergo Emacs. Tried vim mappings but modal editing doesn't work across applications. You end up pasting code into your chat window. Anyway I realised that a lot of the value of vim is just not having to leave the home row for navigation.
- knight17 11y ago
  Having access to the navigational keys without moving your hands much is a different experience—reduces movement and feels faster. [1] works with Windows and Linux [2] works in Windows only: - [1] http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1467 - [2] http://touchcursor.sourceforge.net
hauget 11y ago
I wish Apple would adopt the Surface approach and just give me/us a Mac tablet. Would be great to have a Mac where I can raise the screen up to eye level (with an embedded stand) and use with my own custom keyboard.
- JBiserkov 11y ago
  Absolutely! I'm currently using a Surface Pro 3 in conjunction with the extremely versatile Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop.
  - hauget 11y ago
    I LOVE my Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard! Have mixed feelings about the mouse though (I still haven't found a way to use the back button on it with my Mac). It would be perfect if Microsoft found a way to put a Thinkpad's track point into it! On the off chance, has anyone found a good carrying bag for the Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard?
    - wampus 11y ago
      The keyboard's alright, but the spongy wrist pad is challenging to keep clean. I like the ergonomics of the mouse, but it's a dirt collector. They need to find a new material for the bottom that doesn't accumulate grit. The biggest problem with the Sculpt is that you can't associate new devices with a single dongle, so you'll tie up more USB ports unless you buy preconfigured combos. That's extremely shortsighted compared to Logitech, which allows you to associate up to 6 devices to a single dongle.
    - JBiserkov 11y ago
      In fact I have - the Razer StarCraft II Zerg Edition Messenger bag[0] - it fits perfectly in the general compartment. Email me if you'd like some photos. [0] http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/starcraft-ii-razer-messenger-bag/ http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/starc...
  - rational-future 11y ago
theOnliest 11y ago
Kind of off-topic, but ironically the saxophone is probably the most optimal of the woodwind instruments. It was designed much later than the others, and so Sax was able to take the best parts of the others and avoid all the annoying bits. The saxophone, for example, overblows an octave rather than a twelfth like the clarinet, so you can use the same fingerings in both registers. There's also only one key to be pressed by the thumb, unlike the 13 (!) for the bassoon (9 for the left thumb, 4 for the right). This engineering is one of the reasons all of the saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, bari, etc.) have a similar sound, whereas (say), all the members of the clarinet family sound pretty different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone#History
- thedudemabry 11y ago
  That's a fascinating comment! As a piano and guitar player only, I have little to no understanding of other instruments. I was shocked when watching Whiplash that drums needed to be tuned to particular keys. This reminded me of a really fun talk from this year dealing with teaching (and internalizing) music theory using a Ruby DSL: http://confreaks.tv/videos/mwrc2015-writing-music-with-ruby-a-subtle-introduction-to-music-theory http://confreaks.tv/videos/mwrc2015-writing-music-with-ruby-...
- technomancy 11y ago
  > There's also only one key to be pressed by the thumb, unlike the 13 (!) for the bassoon Surely a middle ground would be preferable. One of the biggest shortcomings of the modern keyboard is that each thumb is essentially responsible for only a single key each, while the thumb is by far the most flexible and strongest of the digits.
  - theOnliest 11y ago
    That's true. Part of the problem is that for the smaller woodwinds, the right thumb is responsible for holding the weight of the instrument. When a clarinetist is playing an open G, no keys are depressed, and so the instrument is supported only by the mouth and the right thumb. The reason the left thumb has so few (saxophone and flute each have one, clarinet has two, oboes have one or two, bassoon is an anomaly) is because it usually operates the register key, which has to be held down much of the time while the other fingers do most of the work (not unlike a shift key for typing capitals). Having the left thumb do this is much easier than, say, the pinky, since you lose a lot of dexterity in your ring finger if the pinky has to stay depressed. Some less common instruments do have more thumb keys; high-end bass clarinets have an extended low register and the two additional notes are operated by the right thumb. Bass clarinet typically uses a peg or a neckstrap, so the thumb is freed up a little bit to do some work. (For a moment I forgot the main topic of the thread was computer keyboards and thought you had very strange piano technique!)
MichaelGG 11y ago
As the earlier X series 12" ThinkPads show, there is simply no reason to move keys around for "space". IBM showed it's easily done, that a full sized layout fits on a small device. These new laptops with compromised layouts are sad. It's just stupid mimicry or terrible "designers" putting questionable form over function. Looking at available ergonomic mechanical keyboards, I think there must be a curse, that every kb designer must do something silly for no reason. I just bought a $200 ergo mech keyboard, and it comes with dedicated Undo/Copy/Paste keys. They actually added a key that sends CtrlZ, which is probably the easiest combo to hit, on a higher end keyboard aimed at pros. Wtf? (I'd pay hundreds for a MS Ergo 4000 with good switches.)
- to3m 11y ago
  The situation with split mechanical keyboards is very odd. Fans of non-split keyboards have a wide range to choose from, including keyboards that have an entirely standard, fairly traditional layout, with every key in its usual place. Those that prefer split keyboards, on the other hand, have to choose between a selection of tenkeyless freaks of nature without even a standard navigation cluster between them. (I would also buy a MS Natural 4000 with decent switches. Not sure I'd pay hundreds, though, because I'd like to buy several. Additionally, the fact the 4000 is so cheap is one of the reasons it's so good.)
- userbinator 11y ago
  These new laptops with compromised layouts are sad. Especially when you see empty space on each side of the keyboard, which isn't being used for speakers or anything else. I have an X60 and while its layout is not exactly like the standard 101-key, they did manage to fit all the keys in there including Scroll Lock/Pause Break.
technomancy 11y ago
The ironic thing is that the "standard" layout was an "innovation" upon earlier layouts, and you can easily imagine a long-time user of the IBM AT keyboard leveling the same kind of complaints: "Having the function keys on the left was so much better! Why did those stupid arrow keys have to get in the way and make the numpad so much further away from the main cluster?" Of course it's not really the same since the AT design hadn't been around for decades, but it's worth remembering that keyboard evolution stopped at an essentially arbitrary point rather than at some imagined pinnacle of design.

by Todd 11y ago

fit2rule 11y ago

What I love doing - re-training myself to use a PC-101 keyboard after a week or some days using the rMBP on the road .. nothing funks up my flow more (in a good way) than going from the hotkeys of OSX to those of a moderately standard fvwm-based Linux desktop, and having a full keyboard switch-up to boot. I kind of think such small experiences are good for you, so I delight in it happening when it does .. However, it terrifies me to use my friends' Dell and Lenovo machines, the key placement is often perplexing. I somehow think the layout is intended to bond the user to the platform, though, and few companies apply that as succinctly than Apple.

Todd 11y ago
Agreed. I often have to use my laptop keyboard, as I'm sure everyone else does. That does make it a luxurious experience to get back to my mechanical keyboard (and external monitors). I look forward to getting back to my cave. Good perspective.
McUsr 11y ago
I switch the capslock and the control key, so that I have a fairly standard 101 XT key keyboard layout. I also "flip" the function keys, so that I have to press fn-f12 to increase the volume. I do that through keyboard pane of System Preferences. ctrl-F4 is then a goodie, that switches windows through the z-window buffer, independendt of the App. You can also mod your keyboard layouot through the cocoa text system, and then you all of suddenly have keys like ctrl-shift a and ctrl-E, ctrl-G (cancel) that works every where. I basically have emulated most of emacs in my modification of the cocoa text system, so that it works in every app that uses the cocoa text system. I have also bound up a lot of automator services to the free combinations of function/modifier keys. I am a happy user.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
For some years now, I've used Windows/Linux on the desktop and a Mac laptop. I no longer have trouble switching between those two, but I get all screwed up when I try to use somebody's Windows laptop...

discreteevent 11y ago

laptops are a pain. I wrote a windows keyboard hook that users caps lock with ijkl for arrows u->home ;->end and space bar fort modal select. A bit like ergo Emacs. Tried vim mappings but modal editing doesn't work across applications. You end up pasting code into your chat window. Anyway I realised that a lot of the value of vim is just not having to leave the home row for navigation.

knight17 11y ago
Having access to the navigational keys without moving your hands much is a different experience—reduces movement and feels faster. [1] works with Windows and Linux [2] works in Windows only: - [1] http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1467 - [2] http://touchcursor.sourceforge.net

hauget 11y ago

I wish Apple would adopt the Surface approach and just give me/us a Mac tablet. Would be great to have a Mac where I can raise the screen up to eye level (with an embedded stand) and use with my own custom keyboard.

JBiserkov 11y ago
Absolutely! I'm currently using a Surface Pro 3 in conjunction with the extremely versatile Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop.
- hauget 11y ago
  I LOVE my Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard! Have mixed feelings about the mouse though (I still haven't found a way to use the back button on it with my Mac). It would be perfect if Microsoft found a way to put a Thinkpad's track point into it! On the off chance, has anyone found a good carrying bag for the Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard?
  - wampus 11y ago
    The keyboard's alright, but the spongy wrist pad is challenging to keep clean. I like the ergonomics of the mouse, but it's a dirt collector. They need to find a new material for the bottom that doesn't accumulate grit. The biggest problem with the Sculpt is that you can't associate new devices with a single dongle, so you'll tie up more USB ports unless you buy preconfigured combos. That's extremely shortsighted compared to Logitech, which allows you to associate up to 6 devices to a single dongle.
  - JBiserkov 11y ago
    In fact I have - the Razer StarCraft II Zerg Edition Messenger bag[0] - it fits perfectly in the general compartment. Email me if you'd like some photos. [0] http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/starcraft-ii-razer-messenger-bag/ http://www.razerzone.com/licensed-and-team-peripherals/starc...
- rational-future 11y ago

theOnliest 11y ago

Kind of off-topic, but ironically the saxophone is probably the most optimal of the woodwind instruments. It was designed much later than the others, and so Sax was able to take the best parts of the others and avoid all the annoying bits. The saxophone, for example, overblows an octave rather than a twelfth like the clarinet, so you can use the same fingerings in both registers. There's also only one key to be pressed by the thumb, unlike the 13 (!) for the bassoon (9 for the left thumb, 4 for the right). This engineering is one of the reasons all of the saxophones (soprano, alto, tenor, bari, etc.) have a similar sound, whereas (say), all the members of the clarinet family sound pretty different. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxophone#History

thedudemabry 11y ago
That's a fascinating comment! As a piano and guitar player only, I have little to no understanding of other instruments. I was shocked when watching Whiplash that drums needed to be tuned to particular keys. This reminded me of a really fun talk from this year dealing with teaching (and internalizing) music theory using a Ruby DSL: http://confreaks.tv/videos/mwrc2015-writing-music-with-ruby-a-subtle-introduction-to-music-theory http://confreaks.tv/videos/mwrc2015-writing-music-with-ruby-...
technomancy 11y ago
> There's also only one key to be pressed by the thumb, unlike the 13 (!) for the bassoon Surely a middle ground would be preferable. One of the biggest shortcomings of the modern keyboard is that each thumb is essentially responsible for only a single key each, while the thumb is by far the most flexible and strongest of the digits.
- theOnliest 11y ago
  That's true. Part of the problem is that for the smaller woodwinds, the right thumb is responsible for holding the weight of the instrument. When a clarinetist is playing an open G, no keys are depressed, and so the instrument is supported only by the mouth and the right thumb. The reason the left thumb has so few (saxophone and flute each have one, clarinet has two, oboes have one or two, bassoon is an anomaly) is because it usually operates the register key, which has to be held down much of the time while the other fingers do most of the work (not unlike a shift key for typing capitals). Having the left thumb do this is much easier than, say, the pinky, since you lose a lot of dexterity in your ring finger if the pinky has to stay depressed. Some less common instruments do have more thumb keys; high-end bass clarinets have an extended low register and the two additional notes are operated by the right thumb. Bass clarinet typically uses a peg or a neckstrap, so the thumb is freed up a little bit to do some work. (For a moment I forgot the main topic of the thread was computer keyboards and thought you had very strange piano technique!)

MichaelGG 11y ago

As the earlier X series 12" ThinkPads show, there is simply no reason to move keys around for "space". IBM showed it's easily done, that a full sized layout fits on a small device. These new laptops with compromised layouts are sad. It's just stupid mimicry or terrible "designers" putting questionable form over function. Looking at available ergonomic mechanical keyboards, I think there must be a curse, that every kb designer must do something silly for no reason. I just bought a $200 ergo mech keyboard, and it comes with dedicated Undo/Copy/Paste keys. They actually added a key that sends CtrlZ, which is probably the easiest combo to hit, on a higher end keyboard aimed at pros. Wtf? (I'd pay hundreds for a MS Ergo 4000 with good switches.)

to3m 11y ago
The situation with split mechanical keyboards is very odd. Fans of non-split keyboards have a wide range to choose from, including keyboards that have an entirely standard, fairly traditional layout, with every key in its usual place. Those that prefer split keyboards, on the other hand, have to choose between a selection of tenkeyless freaks of nature without even a standard navigation cluster between them. (I would also buy a MS Natural 4000 with decent switches. Not sure I'd pay hundreds, though, because I'd like to buy several. Additionally, the fact the 4000 is so cheap is one of the reasons it's so good.)
userbinator 11y ago
These new laptops with compromised layouts are sad. Especially when you see empty space on each side of the keyboard, which isn't being used for speakers or anything else. I have an X60 and while its layout is not exactly like the standard 101-key, they did manage to fit all the keys in there including Scroll Lock/Pause Break.

technomancy 11y ago

The ironic thing is that the "standard" layout was an "innovation" upon earlier layouts, and you can easily imagine a long-time user of the IBM AT keyboard leveling the same kind of complaints: "Having the function keys on the left was so much better! Why did those stupid arrow keys have to get in the way and make the numpad so much further away from the main cluster?" Of course it's not really the same since the AT design hadn't been around for decades, but it's worth remembering that keyboard evolution stopped at an essentially arbitrary point rather than at some imagined pinnacle of design.