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The argument is not luddite or the oppression of technology. The argument is that we need to revamp our economic system to allow for the displacement of worker

The argument is not luddite or the oppression of technology. The argument is that we need to revamp our economic system to allow for the displacement of workers. The reality is that more and more jobs are 'bullshit' jobs and more people are becoming rapidly economically irrelevant.

adventured 11y ago
Where is this occurring exactly? In nearly every major economy, the people are better off today than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. The US median may be the sole exception, due to having temporarily inherited the global manufacturing base all for itself after WW2. Germany, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Czech, Slovakia, Ireland, Singapore, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Poland, Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil - the people in these countries, in median economic terms, are better off today than at any other time in world history. Even the French, whose economy has been stagnant for 20 years, are incredibly rich when it comes to median net wealth. In France it's $140,000 +/- median net wealth per adult, among the highest on earth. The Japanese are in all sorts of trouble economically, and their people, in median terms, are far better off today than they were in 1920 or in 1970.
- justonepost 11y ago
  What you see is people are working 'bullshit' jobs in order to keep up with consumption. Sure, these jobs exist, but they are mostly pointless. Our economic system is creating these jobs because of ZIRP. Witness the pointless startups getting funded (they're not ALL pointless, of course).. God forbid the fed ever increased interest rates and actually expected people to work in real jobs that produced something real.
  - kevinskii 11y ago
    Do you work a 'bullshit' job?
  - justonepost 11y ago
    This fellow probably says it better than I: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-markets-0 http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-m... If you take a moment and look at maslow's hierarchy of needs you have to ask yourself do we really need all these jobs at the top of the pyramid? Why can't we all just make sure the entire world has the bottom part covered and then just relax and enjoy each other's company / enjoy nature / read a book? Sure, I get why we have roomba the robot, but come on.... Luxury Yachts for millions of dollars? Mansions? Super cars? I mean, wtf.
    - ChuckMcM 11y ago
      No doubt Graeber would have considered the medicine man in the cave society as a 'bullshit' job. :-) The Luddite argument is almost exactly as you've framed it, "technology eats my job, 'they' fix it so most people don't notice, we should collectively outlaw technology." However, the Luddites, then and now, started from a fallacy that a 'job' was some sort of permanently defined thing, of which there was a finite supply. And sadly that is completely backwards. What there is, is capital, which is the output of an economy, which goes back into the economy to create more capital. Capital is not strictly 'money' which is a stand in for it at times, it is the potential to produce goods or services. That potential can be realized as $100 or it can be realized as someone who is not currently employed. The participants in the economy, people like you and me, make up new types of jobs all the time in order to convince some capital to flow your way. When we are successful we capture that capital, and then we reuse it to meet our own needs or goals. So when ever there is excess capital, there is job creation because everyone wants a piece of it.
  - steve19 11y ago
    can you give some examples of these so called bullshit jobs? you might not agree that military jobs are useful (I think they serve a useful purpose) or the government in general (could be smaller, but it's not all bullshit in my opinion )... but many people would disagree with you.
    - pkaye 11y ago
      Here is an article about bullshit jobs: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ One of the examples is telemarketers.
    - jqm 11y ago
      HR. Insurance sales. Medical Billing just to name a few. It's not that the purpose behind these are bullshit, but the system is set up in an inefficient way rather than as a society doing things efficiently which would require less people. Many many jobs are manifestly bullshit (i.e. people expending effort and collecting salary doing something that could be done with much less effort a different way). Not only this, but even most non-bullshit jobs are comprised of a large percentage bullshit. Technology has increased more than the standard of living and we are still working the same hours. Why? Because bullshit arises to claim the excess.
  - adventured 11y ago
    So when in the past weren't the median of people working what you'd call bullshit jobs, and in which countries? What jobs were they doing? The median economic facts indicate greater income, wealth, life expectancy, standard of living, disposable income. Not to mention vastly superior / improved healthcare for the majority of countries versus 100 or 50 years ago.
    - Retric 11y ago
      More segments of the U.S. population is worse off now vs better than 50 years ago. Considering the massive economic and technological gains over that time period something is clearly broken. EX1: The rediculus increase in the prison populaion from drugs and other BS crimes. EX2: Todays minimum wage is equivelent to a 97 cent minimum wage in 1965 though the actual minimum wage in 1965 was 1.25$. PS: Yes, some things cost less but education and housing more than make up the difference. And no education is not significantly better now.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
melling 11y ago
It is the Luddite argument. What did they do when their jobs were replaced? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite Automating people out of work is not a new problem
- Klinky 11y ago
  Nor is it a solved problem. You cannot point to any modern economy as an example of successfully avoiding this issue, since they all rely heavily on subsidy injections to maintain the economy(and for other reasons). A more modern example would be British coal. While people have moved on decades later, local economies were devastated. It can take generations to recover, while many fall through the cracks.

adventured 11y ago

Where is this occurring exactly? In nearly every major economy, the people are better off today than they were 100 years ago, or 50 years ago. The US median may be the sole exception, due to having temporarily inherited the global manufacturing base all for itself after WW2. Germany, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Czech, Slovakia, Ireland, Singapore, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Poland, Russia, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil - the people in these countries, in median economic terms, are better off today than at any other time in world history. Even the French, whose economy has been stagnant for 20 years, are incredibly rich when it comes to median net wealth. In France it's $140,000 +/- median net wealth per adult, among the highest on earth. The Japanese are in all sorts of trouble economically, and their people, in median terms, are far better off today than they were in 1920 or in 1970.

justonepost 11y ago
What you see is people are working 'bullshit' jobs in order to keep up with consumption. Sure, these jobs exist, but they are mostly pointless. Our economic system is creating these jobs because of ZIRP. Witness the pointless startups getting funded (they're not ALL pointless, of course).. God forbid the fed ever increased interest rates and actually expected people to work in real jobs that produced something real.
- kevinskii 11y ago
  Do you work a 'bullshit' job?
- justonepost 11y ago
  This fellow probably says it better than I: http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-markets-0 http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2013/08/labour-m... If you take a moment and look at maslow's hierarchy of needs you have to ask yourself do we really need all these jobs at the top of the pyramid? Why can't we all just make sure the entire world has the bottom part covered and then just relax and enjoy each other's company / enjoy nature / read a book? Sure, I get why we have roomba the robot, but come on.... Luxury Yachts for millions of dollars? Mansions? Super cars? I mean, wtf.
  - ChuckMcM 11y ago
    No doubt Graeber would have considered the medicine man in the cave society as a 'bullshit' job. :-) The Luddite argument is almost exactly as you've framed it, "technology eats my job, 'they' fix it so most people don't notice, we should collectively outlaw technology." However, the Luddites, then and now, started from a fallacy that a 'job' was some sort of permanently defined thing, of which there was a finite supply. And sadly that is completely backwards. What there is, is capital, which is the output of an economy, which goes back into the economy to create more capital. Capital is not strictly 'money' which is a stand in for it at times, it is the potential to produce goods or services. That potential can be realized as $100 or it can be realized as someone who is not currently employed. The participants in the economy, people like you and me, make up new types of jobs all the time in order to convince some capital to flow your way. When we are successful we capture that capital, and then we reuse it to meet our own needs or goals. So when ever there is excess capital, there is job creation because everyone wants a piece of it.
- steve19 11y ago
  can you give some examples of these so called bullshit jobs? you might not agree that military jobs are useful (I think they serve a useful purpose) or the government in general (could be smaller, but it's not all bullshit in my opinion )... but many people would disagree with you.
  - pkaye 11y ago
    Here is an article about bullshit jobs: http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ http://strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/ One of the examples is telemarketers.
  - jqm 11y ago
    HR. Insurance sales. Medical Billing just to name a few. It's not that the purpose behind these are bullshit, but the system is set up in an inefficient way rather than as a society doing things efficiently which would require less people. Many many jobs are manifestly bullshit (i.e. people expending effort and collecting salary doing something that could be done with much less effort a different way). Not only this, but even most non-bullshit jobs are comprised of a large percentage bullshit. Technology has increased more than the standard of living and we are still working the same hours. Why? Because bullshit arises to claim the excess.
- adventured 11y ago
  So when in the past weren't the median of people working what you'd call bullshit jobs, and in which countries? What jobs were they doing? The median economic facts indicate greater income, wealth, life expectancy, standard of living, disposable income. Not to mention vastly superior / improved healthcare for the majority of countries versus 100 or 50 years ago.
  - Retric 11y ago
    More segments of the U.S. population is worse off now vs better than 50 years ago. Considering the massive economic and technological gains over that time period something is clearly broken. EX1: The rediculus increase in the prison populaion from drugs and other BS crimes. EX2: Todays minimum wage is equivelent to a 97 cent minimum wage in 1965 though the actual minimum wage in 1965 was 1.25$. PS: Yes, some things cost less but education and housing more than make up the difference. And no education is not significantly better now.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

melling 11y ago

It is the Luddite argument. What did they do when their jobs were replaced? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite Automating people out of work is not a new problem

Klinky 11y ago
Nor is it a solved problem. You cannot point to any modern economy as an example of successfully avoiding this issue, since they all rely heavily on subsidy injections to maintain the economy(and for other reasons). A more modern example would be British coal. While people have moved on decades later, local economies were devastated. It can take generations to recover, while many fall through the cracks.