5 ms·

This legacy system issue doesn't just happen to remote/low budget operations either. While they've now moved to emulating the system on what are presumably VMs,

by rmxt 11y ago

This legacy system issue doesn't just happen to remote/low budget operations either. While they've now moved to emulating the system on what are presumably VMs, Columbia University uses what amounts to a 40 year old system to post final grades to the student administration portal. Official transcript grades are updated once daily, at some time in the wee hours of the morning. From a Columbia CS professor: "Columbia processes grades by using a system that was first released in 1972. In order to have kept it running for more than 40 years, it has consistently run special-purpose emulators that make its otherwise state-of-the-art systems think that they are stuck in the 70s and using an operating system called “CP/CMS”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system) The grading system is written in a programming language called “Focus,” which in 1975 was one of the very first database languages developed and released: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS But because of this, grades are processed only once per day, in a batch job that runs at about midnight every night. I am not making this up. The university, recognizing that it is time for it to upgrade, does have plans for replacing the grading system. The upgrade is scheduled for the year 2020. I am not making this up either." http://bwog.com/2014/01/06/why-your-grades-take-so-long-to-show-up/ http://bwog.com/2014/01/06/why-your-grades-take-so-long-to-s... I imagine these schools will eventually move to something similar: an emulated system with specialized hardware to interface with the mechanical equipment.

eli 11y ago
Many universities have systems like that. Banks too. Probably true of many early adopters: they built systems that worked and didn't rewrite them simply for the sake of having something new.
- organsnyder 11y ago
  When I interned at IBM from 2003-2006, we submitted our timecards using a terminal application accessed over telnet. I don't know exactly what system it was, but the key commands certainly evoked thoughts of early mainframes.
- nine_k 11y ago
  It's not for the sake of having something new. New technologies do often provide obvious benefits. It's the cost of a new version (both in software development and reorganization of processes) that may be too high to justify these benefits.
- HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
  At my first job, we built I/O cards that did stuff like the Amiga in the article does. The cards used adapters so they could run on anything from TRS80's to PC's because at the time the system was conceived, the IBM PC hadn't emerged as the dominant desktop yet. The company is long out of business, but every so often someone finds some of their products at a garage sale or industrial auction or it comes in a box of other things on eBay. When they search for manuals on the product they often find me because by coincidence someone asked about those products on a forum I frequent and that conversation tends to come up in the first page on google. It's amazing how many really old systems are still running after decades without change and no one gives it a thought until something breaks. I've often wished I had a list of their old customers so I could contact them and offer my services to upgrade old controls. [sigh] another business opportunity missed.
  - sitkack 11y ago
    Make a webpage with all the info you have on the subject, state what you just stated. Done. Free business.
    - hoggle 11y ago
      Yes and please do blog about it regularly if you feel like it - this whole thread on legacy systems is the most interesting read on HN for a long time IMHO.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
      [smacks self on head] Thank you. For some inexplicable reason the most obvious solution honestly never occurred to me!
- ams6110 11y ago
  Most of my credit cards will not update the balance immediately after I make a payment. It takes a day (sometimes more, depending on timing). Clearly batch processes are involved. There's nothing wrong with batch processes. They are often easier to reason about than having a system where everything can change in real time. Sometimes you want real time. Sometimes (many times) a daily batch is just fine.
  - mixmastamyk 11y ago
    Also gives you a chance to change your mind, say to cancel a pending bank transaction in the evening.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      You can have delays for that purpose in real-time systems too. And they'd actually be consistent, instead of having variable lengths to cancel the transaction.
  - saryant 11y ago
    Credit card processing does seem to be moving towards real-time. Lately I've found more and more merchants where I get a notification on my phone instantly after my Amex is swiped.
rbanffy 11y ago
> grades are processed only once per day Playing devil's advocate here... Do grades change during the day?
- slipjack 11y ago
  Different teachers putting their grades in at different times of the day? Sure.
  - fit2rule 11y ago
    Why should the computer have to deal with what is obviously a poor policy decision on the part of the teachers and administrators? Enter the grades when you're working - i.e. during your work day. Oh .. I know, teachers work way more than they are given credit, and don't make nearly enough for the work they do, given that they're up until 4am doing some paperwork or other in order that a few hundred students get their results .. just playing devils advocate here. This is a 40-year old system, still working. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Seriously though, my personal nerd-ego says that anyone who can keep a system running in emulation over 4 decades deserves a special kind of award for the high status of their accomplishment. This is something few of us are capable of doing these days, alas ..
    - slipjack 11y ago
      It doesn't really have anything to do with policy or working odd hours. Unless everyone presses enter at the same time, grades will be input at different times. (I'd love to see administrators trying to corral senior faculty into doing that, though.) As to whether a system should process grades more than once a day, that's obviously a judgement call that Columbia has made. And as someone who worked in the administration of similar university, a small part of me is cheering on whoever at Columbia has held fast against the demand for up-to-the-minute GPAs.
      - fit2rule 11y ago
        Actually, so you're saying you think it is all the result of smart policy, and I agree with you now. I see that up-to-the-minute GPA's are a real burden. Funny though, that they all have to hit enter at the same time, didn't realize it was that brilliant. ;)
freehunter 11y ago
I know what you mean comparing it to Columbia University, but Grand Rapids isn't exactly a remote location. It's the second largest city in Michigan. We're not talking about northern Alaska.
- organsnyder 11y ago
  It's not remote, but the school district hasn't exactly been flush with cash over the past few decades. If this occurred in East Grand Rapids, Forest Hills, etc., I would be more surprised.
  - Beached 11y ago
    Hi Chris :)
NoMoreNicksLeft 11y ago
Even modern software would work like this. Many universities use a product called Appworx that schedules jobs... and your grades are only going to be upgraded once per day.
jccalhoun 11y ago
Probably works a lot better than the crappy peoplesoft system my college bought into...
- hurricaneSlider 11y ago
  You have that too. Are you from UCT?
  - hueving 11y ago
    That Peoplesoft system dominates a lot of the schools in the US. It spread like the plague on promises of being tailored to every school's business logic. Unfortunately it did so via vomit-inducing over-abstraction to the point where interfacing with it just to lookup a student record takes hundreds of lines of XML/SOAP wrangling.
bitwize 11y ago
IBM mainframes incorporate VM technology in both senses of the word: the "abstract ISA" sense and the "simulated hardware" sense. They knew they were building systems that may have to be online for decades; and the exact same object code that ran on the original System/360 runs bit-identical on a brand new POWER-based mainframe (though obviously faster).

by rmxt 11y ago

eli 11y ago

Many universities have systems like that. Banks too. Probably true of many early adopters: they built systems that worked and didn't rewrite them simply for the sake of having something new.

organsnyder 11y ago
When I interned at IBM from 2003-2006, we submitted our timecards using a terminal application accessed over telnet. I don't know exactly what system it was, but the key commands certainly evoked thoughts of early mainframes.
nine_k 11y ago
It's not for the sake of having something new. New technologies do often provide obvious benefits. It's the cost of a new version (both in software development and reorganization of processes) that may be too high to justify these benefits.
HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
At my first job, we built I/O cards that did stuff like the Amiga in the article does. The cards used adapters so they could run on anything from TRS80's to PC's because at the time the system was conceived, the IBM PC hadn't emerged as the dominant desktop yet. The company is long out of business, but every so often someone finds some of their products at a garage sale or industrial auction or it comes in a box of other things on eBay. When they search for manuals on the product they often find me because by coincidence someone asked about those products on a forum I frequent and that conversation tends to come up in the first page on google. It's amazing how many really old systems are still running after decades without change and no one gives it a thought until something breaks. I've often wished I had a list of their old customers so I could contact them and offer my services to upgrade old controls. [sigh] another business opportunity missed.
- sitkack 11y ago
  Make a webpage with all the info you have on the subject, state what you just stated. Done. Free business.
  - hoggle 11y ago
    Yes and please do blog about it regularly if you feel like it - this whole thread on legacy systems is the most interesting read on HN for a long time IMHO.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    [smacks self on head] Thank you. For some inexplicable reason the most obvious solution honestly never occurred to me!
ams6110 11y ago
Most of my credit cards will not update the balance immediately after I make a payment. It takes a day (sometimes more, depending on timing). Clearly batch processes are involved. There's nothing wrong with batch processes. They are often easier to reason about than having a system where everything can change in real time. Sometimes you want real time. Sometimes (many times) a daily batch is just fine.
- mixmastamyk 11y ago
  Also gives you a chance to change your mind, say to cancel a pending bank transaction in the evening.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    You can have delays for that purpose in real-time systems too. And they'd actually be consistent, instead of having variable lengths to cancel the transaction.
- saryant 11y ago
  Credit card processing does seem to be moving towards real-time. Lately I've found more and more merchants where I get a notification on my phone instantly after my Amex is swiped.

rbanffy 11y ago

> grades are processed only once per day Playing devil's advocate here... Do grades change during the day?

slipjack 11y ago
Different teachers putting their grades in at different times of the day? Sure.
- fit2rule 11y ago
  Why should the computer have to deal with what is obviously a poor policy decision on the part of the teachers and administrators? Enter the grades when you're working - i.e. during your work day. Oh .. I know, teachers work way more than they are given credit, and don't make nearly enough for the work they do, given that they're up until 4am doing some paperwork or other in order that a few hundred students get their results .. just playing devils advocate here. This is a 40-year old system, still working. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Seriously though, my personal nerd-ego says that anyone who can keep a system running in emulation over 4 decades deserves a special kind of award for the high status of their accomplishment. This is something few of us are capable of doing these days, alas ..
  - slipjack 11y ago
    It doesn't really have anything to do with policy or working odd hours. Unless everyone presses enter at the same time, grades will be input at different times. (I'd love to see administrators trying to corral senior faculty into doing that, though.) As to whether a system should process grades more than once a day, that's obviously a judgement call that Columbia has made. And as someone who worked in the administration of similar university, a small part of me is cheering on whoever at Columbia has held fast against the demand for up-to-the-minute GPAs.
    - fit2rule 11y ago
      Actually, so you're saying you think it is all the result of smart policy, and I agree with you now. I see that up-to-the-minute GPA's are a real burden. Funny though, that they all have to hit enter at the same time, didn't realize it was that brilliant. ;)

freehunter 11y ago

I know what you mean comparing it to Columbia University, but Grand Rapids isn't exactly a remote location. It's the second largest city in Michigan. We're not talking about northern Alaska.

organsnyder 11y ago
It's not remote, but the school district hasn't exactly been flush with cash over the past few decades. If this occurred in East Grand Rapids, Forest Hills, etc., I would be more surprised.
- Beached 11y ago
  Hi Chris :)

NoMoreNicksLeft 11y ago

Even modern software would work like this. Many universities use a product called Appworx that schedules jobs... and your grades are only going to be upgraded once per day.

jccalhoun 11y ago

Probably works a lot better than the crappy peoplesoft system my college bought into...

hurricaneSlider 11y ago
You have that too. Are you from UCT?
- hueving 11y ago
  That Peoplesoft system dominates a lot of the schools in the US. It spread like the plague on promises of being tailored to every school's business logic. Unfortunately it did so via vomit-inducing over-abstraction to the point where interfacing with it just to lookup a student record takes hundreds of lines of XML/SOAP wrangling.

bitwize 11y ago

IBM mainframes incorporate VM technology in both senses of the word: the "abstract ISA" sense and the "simulated hardware" sense. They knew they were building systems that may have to be online for decades; and the exact same object code that ran on the original System/360 runs bit-identical on a brand new POWER-based mainframe (though obviously faster).