8 ms·

I have been working for myself for last 8 years after completing my masters, in hindsight financially I did not do too badly (tho there was some great and ups a

by yc1010 11y ago

I have been working for myself for last 8 years after completing my masters, in hindsight financially I did not do too badly (tho there was some great and ups and incredible downs!) and it is NICE working from home and watching your kid grow (tho there are quite a lot of distractions!!! says he who is procrastinating reading HN :D ) BUT if I was offered a job with guaranteed employment and steady wages and (gaaasp pension!) like being a teacher I would go for it. Having kids changes your perspective. I would have been financially much better of if it wasn't for punitive taxes in Ireland, here you reach ~53% high tax rate with only about ~$35K in income. And then there are new property/water taxes they brought in now as well as 23% VAT :( All of these taxes really make you ask yourself "why bother work harder and longer" and really kill any incentive to work. And no we do not get free healthcare here still need to pay for medical insurance out of aftertax earnings. And as a business owner I do not qualify for the full welfare if things go to shit, despite paying high rate of social taxes. edit: Now that I read my rant in second half of my past, no wonder no good startups come from here, the atmosphere is toxic to entrepreneurship.

rblstr 11y ago
Well, you've just convinced me never to return to Ireland until I retire, thanks!
- yc1010 11y ago
  Yeh me and my kids will be paying for a long time for the worlds biggest banking (per capita) debacle and the destruction of the economy in the 00s by various governments. With kids its sort of hard to leave :( Tho' it is a nice place to live despite all the carry on. But hey look over there at the news yet another multinational setting up to launder/funnel money onto somewhere warmer and seems like a housing bubble is re-inflating again. -------- edit: last year i arranged my salary to remain under the high tax rate band Gross: €32.6 K Net (after PAYE,PRSI,USC): €25 K The accountant said that above this €32K line i would have lost about ~53 cents in taxes for each €1.00 earned by ending up in the highest tax band... So I left the extra money in company (corporation tax 12.5%) and will spread out my wages over few years, tho is risky practice if the company gets sued and loses the money. There is an option to pay into a pension but with the pension funds being so mismanaged and the government actively robbing all pensions and destroying the pension reserve that would be downright stupid.
  - 3pt14159 11y ago
    Set up a trust or a separate management company that cannot be easily sued (only one client: your other business). If for some reason Irish tax law doesn't work for this case, you can probably set up a foreign owned management company or quality assurance company. Another option is to buy business insurance for lawsuits, though really do you research and record the call you have with the rep because he will promise you things that are not true. If you don't have one party consent for phone calls in Ireland do it from a country that does.
    - yc1010 11y ago
      Yeh the problem is you do not want to cross Revenue, they do assume your are guilty and you have to prove your innocence when it comes to tax matters. Best if possible not do anything which they might interpret as dodgy.
  - ode 11y ago
    Doesn't Ireland have a graduated tax system?
    - mootothemax 11y ago
      Doesn't Ireland have a graduated tax system? According to Wikipedia, it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire... "The taxation of earnings is progressive" Which makes the OP's post rather confusing. Does any country out there not tax progressively? I just can't imagine it - "Great, you got a pay rise! Now you get to take home less, until your pay rises by another $5,000!" Edit: On second reading, I think I understand what the OP is talking about: leaving money in the company they operate, which pays out (I guess through dividends?) at a lesser tax rate than if it were paid out directly as wages. I'm pretty sure this is a standard technique in the rest of the world, and not particularly unique to Ireland.
      - yebyen 11y ago
        That's approximately how I read it. Even if it's his company, money he puts in his own pocket needs to have income tax paid on it (I would suppose this means, after any appropriate corporate taxes are paid by the corporation). If the money does not actually leave the company and go into his pocket, the only taxes that would need to be paid are those (low) corporate taxes. Of what value is money you can't have in your pocket and spend, of course, is an exercise for the reader, but presumably it could be paid out as personal income over a greater number of years (if the company survives that long) without ever paying $0.53/1.00 in personal income taxes on any portion of that money.
psybermancer 11y ago
Thanks to the Internet numbing my moral compass, it's not often I'm shocked, but 53% is just horrifying :(. On the other foot, I live in Australia where most can't afford to buy a house in Sydney, even with what would be considered pretty good wages. That's why I moved out of core tech and became a librarian (which is still pretty tech) in a more regional city. Lower wages but slightly more affordable houses mean I might still have a chance at giving my kids a mortgage one day..
- nugget 11y ago
  Between (hidden) payroll taxes and state and federal income taxes a developer making 120k in San Francisco isn't too far below 53%.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    It's only 40% in California at $120k. And 25% at the $35k level OP mentioned.
    - brianwawok 11y ago
      Which has always been one of the downsides of Cali life, your local tax bracket and your federal tax bracket are not on the same program.
  - jtbigwoo 11y ago
    120k is in the top 20% of wage earners in the U.S. That's quite a bit different than $35k which is in the bottom ~30% (in the U.S.)
- mattdeboard 11y ago
  In addition to the other responses, remember that US federal income tax is a graduated tax rate, so even at ~40% on 120k, you're only paying 40% on your income over like 90k, lower tax rates for income in lower brackets.
jkot 11y ago
Some source on Irish taxes? Last time I checked income tax in Ireland was one of lowest in Europe. Bellow €40K (+-) was 20%, everything over 40%. Same income in Germany is taxed way higher.
- yc1010 11y ago
  Try this calculator, in the last few years taxes have increased a lot. Also keep in mind if you are a director of a company (Startup etc) you lose a good chunk of your tax credits Anyways to answer your question, play around with calculator http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html A single 30 year old (average age of HNers?) earning €100K will receive €58,869 after all the income taxes From this money he/she will have to then pay water tax, local property tax (if renting the landlord will pass it on), VAT of 23% on almost everything and so on, and god help you if you buy a car! --- 41% is the highest tax band BUT there is also USC and PRSI tax which needs to be paid which brings up the highest rate to above 50% basically there are a lot of hidden taxes and it is a very complex tax system which allows the government to make the figures appear palatable
  - jahnu 11y ago
    If you can't live well €100K in Ireland you are doing something wrong. Do you realise that you are in the top ~12% of household income with that sort of money? I do sometimes wonder what kind of self-awareness people have of their status.
    - yc1010 11y ago
      I just pulled a round figure that someone working in tech either in US or EU would be expecting http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer... A lot of HN readers are from US and would be shocked at the tax rates here (on everything) and they further shocked as to how little we get to see for our tax money (no free healthcare etc)
      - 11y ago
raziel2p 11y ago
$35K monthly or yearly?
- rasur 11y ago
  He would be talking about yearly.
simonebrunozzi 11y ago
It is (was) great for Ireland, though. That's how they attracted tons of (large) tech companies to Ireland. It's the perfect match: low corporate tax, no incentive for people to go away and do their own startups, which means you can get paid less as there as less alternatives for you. Very smart play by Ireland. Then, the EU went back to them and told them they couldn't keep doing this, and very soon (is it 2016?) they will rack up corporate tax and make a fortune. And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon.
- hopeless 11y ago
  There are no plans to change the corporate tax rate and the EU have no jurisdiction in these matters. What is happening, rightly so, is the dismantling of some mechanisms which allowed large corporations to avoid paying the corporation tax at all. I think, though not sure, that this includes dismantling the double-irish arrangement where companies declared the majority of their income as expenses for licensing the product/brand etc from a parent company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
- brianwawok 11y ago
  > And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon. You think? I don't think big business tends to fall into the sunk cost fallacy like we do. It may take a year to move out, but if they save no money in Ireland over the US, why stay?
- pjc50 11y ago
  And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon Plenty of people have said that about other employers in the past and come into work one day to find the doors locked.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
maccard 11y ago
Between that and the cost of property in Dublin (rental prices are insane at the minute, and I haven't looked at buying but I figure it's the same) that's why everyone graduating in ireland is leaving
- reitoei 11y ago
  Well they're idiots because there are plenty of really well-paying job in the tech industry.
  - Kudos 11y ago
    Firstly, not everyone works in tech. But even from that perspective Dublin tech salaries do not offset the taxes and cost of living there to the point of being an idiot for leaving. Particularly if you're a high earner paying the punitive tax rates here. In my case I could move from Dublin to Silicon Valley and make 30% to 50% more cash and pay way less in taxes, I would be an idiot to not consider it.
  - maccard 11y ago
    I'd love to get some links to these high-paying jobs in Dublin? Last I checked, IBM were offering sub 30k for graduates, and Microsoft weren't far off the same amount. In US terms, that's 34k USD, for a city where you'll spend 800 dollars a month of your salary on renting a room, and another 170 dollars on communting by bus.
    - reitoei 11y ago
      > Last I checked, IBM were offering sub 30k for graduates You expect to walk into an 80k a year job straight out of college? Everyone has to start somewhere. If I was a graduate, I'd much rather be working sub 30k for IBM than sub 40k for Dublin's next Groupon killer/Airbnb for iguanas.
      - maccard 11y ago
        You just said: > there are plenty of really well-paying job in the tech industry. And I can walk into an 80k job outside of Dublin. Considering the cost of living in Dublin vs the salary for tech grads versus... anywhere else in the world, you'd be crazy to stay.
pessimik 11y ago
Go to Poland - 19% flat income tax rate for companies - you can get flat by 400 euro / month in biggest cities and work remotely for foreign clients.
- mootothemax 11y ago
  Go to Poland - 19% flat income tax rate for companies - you can get flat by 400 euro / month in biggest cities and work remotely for foreign clients. To expand on this: one can operate as a sole trader company, and enjoy the 19% flat income tax rate. You can also register your company for VAT, and then claim back the VAT on company purchases. The only other cost is ~$270 / ~240 EUR / ~180 GBP per month in social insurance taxes. I've been here for the last five years, and the low cost of living (very low cost outside of Warsaw) combined with low taxes makes Poland a very forgiving place to be when your first few side businesses inevitably fail. (for that matter, the startup community here in Warsaw, centred somewhat around Reaktor - http://reaktorwarsaw.com http://reaktorwarsaw.com - is really picking up steam) If you do what I do - remote consulting for clients in the UK and USA - and you have the talent to charge western rates, you can build a sizeable nest egg in next to no time.
  - lsaferite 11y ago
    You know what sucks. As an American I'd still have to pay American income taxes. I cannot wrap my head around how we can say that's ok. Sure, there are ways to get around a portion of the taxes, but those involve things like never coming to the US for more than a set (short) amount of time.
    - mootothemax 11y ago
      You know what sucks. As an American I'd still have to pay American income taxes. Agreed, it always feels scandalous to me whenever I hear this fact. No idea how it works in practise. I known plenty of Americans who have settled in Poland for a good portion of their lives, so it must be possible to overcome the burden. Maybe it's one of those things where, as long as you can afford to pay a good accountant (and you really should be able to afford it in Poland), they take the pain away for you?
dubcanada 11y ago
Really it's the no healthcare that is the issue. How can you tax your residents so much and not provide healthcare? My payroll tax rate in Canada is about 30% on ~$55K
- yc1010 11y ago
  There is "free" healthcare if you are unemployed and qualify for a medical card, tho if you open the newspapers any week you would hear all sorts of horror stories about our public hospitals. The public system is under immense stress after years of negligence and cuts so your experience of a public hospital might quite literally be your last. If you are employed you have no choice but to pay for private insurance: * Family with 2 kids ~ €2600 per year * Singe person ~ €500-€1000 per year (dependant on age etc) Tho the costs for health insurance are rising of course...
reitoei 11y ago
I did exactly this. Was contracting for 8 years in Dublin, commuting almost 3 hours daily. I was making good (but not amazing) money. Then the kids came, and that 3 hour commute became 3 hours that I could spend helping my wife or spending time with my kids. Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck.
- Delmania 11y ago
  > Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck. While it seems to have become the trend to rail against traditional 40 hour/week jobs, the stability they can offer it extremely enticing to people with families. Eevee lives with 3 other grown adults and no children. As someone looking to make the jump from a traditional job to financial independence (and self employment), I've noticed that people like Tim Ferris and Ramit Sethi all have one thing in common: no children. They are able to take the risks they can because when they fail, it's only on them. With kids and a house, it's no longer the case. The people I follow who have successfully made the transition (Mr. Money Mustahce, Simple Programmer) have all used the traditional job as a means of support until they were ready to launch. Also, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with just wanting to put in 40 hours and go home.
  - reitoei 11y ago
    With kids and a mortgage, my perspective definitely shifted. I could have continued on doing what I did with the contracting, but I know for a fact that my family life would have suffered as a result. Having a 40 hour a week job is great because it gives me the ability to plan better for my family, in terms of time and money. Yes, it does feel 'transitional' but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I really like the company that I now work for, and I still have time to work on 'side projects' at home whenever I feel like it. It's also a hell of a lot stressful. I have the ability to 'let go' of work stress a lot easier than ever before.
themartorana 11y ago
Good lord, 53% tax plus 23% VAT plus utilities tax plus monthly healthcare premiums plus...? I'm a bit of a socialist living in the U.S. - I believe in higher taxes on higher earnings and universal healthcare - but what in all that is holy do you get for your tax money??
- mootothemax 11y ago
  Good lord, 53% tax plus 23% VAT plus utilities tax plus monthly healthcare premiums plus...? The OP's overstating their case a bit, see the tax calculator here: http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ (you'll get close to 60k in your pocket from 100k.) The wikipedia article's pretty comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire...
  - yc1010 11y ago
    Actually I was discussing that once you reach the low threshold for higher rate tax of about ~€32-33K every single euro above this will be taxed at over 50%, below this its about 20-25% depending on a wide range of circumstances and variables. This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here.
    - mootothemax 11y ago
      Actually I was discussing that once you reach the low threshold for higher rate tax of about ~€32-33K every single euro above this will be taxed at over 50%, below this its about 20-25% depending on a wide range of circumstances and variables. Honestly, I'm genuinely not scandalised about the rates you've listed; they seem pretty standard for Europe. This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful A top rate of 50% isn't that scandalous. It's a lot, and there are plenty of means to reduce it. Personally, I'm far more concerned about getting the point where the top tax rate is a serious problem for me in the first place. AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here. I fear that if you think living elsewhere is going to result in a major change on your life from the tax rate alone, the options are few and far between. I've heard that you either love or hate Dubai, for instance. (of course, there are always exceptions on prices of e.g. clothing, computing goods etc. etc. Always idly tempting to imagine moving somewhere that doesn't have VAT!)
stephengillie 11y ago
> All of these taxes really make you ask yourself "why bother work harder and longer" and really kill any incentive to work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve
esharte 11y ago
>~53% high tax rate with only about ~$35K in income I'm sorry but you cant just go on to HN and make stuff up. You pay 20% on the first €33,800 income and only 40% on income over €33,800 if single. You pay 20% on the first €42,800 income and only 40% on income over €42,800 if Married with one income. You pay 20% on the first €67,600 income and only 40% on income over €67,600 if Married with two incomes. You pay 20% on the first €37,800 income and only 40% on income over €37,800 if a single parent.
- fragsworth 11y ago
  Maybe including City / Local taxes?
  - rmc 11y ago
    Nope. I'm Irish and confirm those figures. There is no city or local taxes in Ireland. (Ireland, with a population of 4.5mil isn't split into many different juristicions like the USA)
- yc1010 11y ago
  Way to ignore USC (Universal Social Charge) and PRSI (Pay Related Social Insurance), these two alone + income taxes add up to over 50% rate on every euro earned above about 32-33K thats without even going into property tax which could also be taken out of your income (and probably water tax soon) The government has deliberately made the "income" taxes so complicated with 3 major different variables, and plenty of other minor nuances dependent on the persons circumstance In my case for 2014: ---- Gross Pay €32,876.69 Income Tax €4,941.44 USC €1,620.17 PRSI €1,315.08 Net Pay €25,000 ---- Thats for tax year 2014 (wasn't married yet, own company director), any euros earned above this I would have had to pay a rate of 50%+ tax (income+usc+prsi), This year it is a little less (few hundred euro) due to getting married and budget 2015 being a tiny bit more forgiving. You have ignored PRSI and USC and ignored that company directors lose a good chunk of their tax credits (and to add insult to injury no longer qualify for full welfare when things go bad!) for bothering to start a company, I suppose you work for someone else and do not comprehend how toxic the tax regime is towards small businesses. Revenue views all small business and sole traders with absolute disdain the EXPECT them all too be crooked and ASSUME you are guilty of tax fraud and place the onus on you to PROVE you are innocent of any tax misdoings (which costs time and accounting money)...

by yc1010 11y ago

rblstr 11y ago

Well, you've just convinced me never to return to Ireland until I retire, thanks!

yc1010 11y ago
Yeh me and my kids will be paying for a long time for the worlds biggest banking (per capita) debacle and the destruction of the economy in the 00s by various governments. With kids its sort of hard to leave :( Tho' it is a nice place to live despite all the carry on. But hey look over there at the news yet another multinational setting up to launder/funnel money onto somewhere warmer and seems like a housing bubble is re-inflating again. -------- edit: last year i arranged my salary to remain under the high tax rate band Gross: €32.6 K Net (after PAYE,PRSI,USC): €25 K The accountant said that above this €32K line i would have lost about ~53 cents in taxes for each €1.00 earned by ending up in the highest tax band... So I left the extra money in company (corporation tax 12.5%) and will spread out my wages over few years, tho is risky practice if the company gets sued and loses the money. There is an option to pay into a pension but with the pension funds being so mismanaged and the government actively robbing all pensions and destroying the pension reserve that would be downright stupid.
- 3pt14159 11y ago
  Set up a trust or a separate management company that cannot be easily sued (only one client: your other business). If for some reason Irish tax law doesn't work for this case, you can probably set up a foreign owned management company or quality assurance company. Another option is to buy business insurance for lawsuits, though really do you research and record the call you have with the rep because he will promise you things that are not true. If you don't have one party consent for phone calls in Ireland do it from a country that does.
  - yc1010 11y ago
    Yeh the problem is you do not want to cross Revenue, they do assume your are guilty and you have to prove your innocence when it comes to tax matters. Best if possible not do anything which they might interpret as dodgy.
- ode 11y ago
  Doesn't Ireland have a graduated tax system?
  - mootothemax 11y ago
    Doesn't Ireland have a graduated tax system? According to Wikipedia, it does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire... "The taxation of earnings is progressive" Which makes the OP's post rather confusing. Does any country out there not tax progressively? I just can't imagine it - "Great, you got a pay rise! Now you get to take home less, until your pay rises by another $5,000!" Edit: On second reading, I think I understand what the OP is talking about: leaving money in the company they operate, which pays out (I guess through dividends?) at a lesser tax rate than if it were paid out directly as wages. I'm pretty sure this is a standard technique in the rest of the world, and not particularly unique to Ireland.
    - yebyen 11y ago
      That's approximately how I read it. Even if it's his company, money he puts in his own pocket needs to have income tax paid on it (I would suppose this means, after any appropriate corporate taxes are paid by the corporation). If the money does not actually leave the company and go into his pocket, the only taxes that would need to be paid are those (low) corporate taxes. Of what value is money you can't have in your pocket and spend, of course, is an exercise for the reader, but presumably it could be paid out as personal income over a greater number of years (if the company survives that long) without ever paying $0.53/1.00 in personal income taxes on any portion of that money.

psybermancer 11y ago

Thanks to the Internet numbing my moral compass, it's not often I'm shocked, but 53% is just horrifying :(. On the other foot, I live in Australia where most can't afford to buy a house in Sydney, even with what would be considered pretty good wages. That's why I moved out of core tech and became a librarian (which is still pretty tech) in a more regional city. Lower wages but slightly more affordable houses mean I might still have a chance at giving my kids a mortgage one day..

nugget 11y ago
Between (hidden) payroll taxes and state and federal income taxes a developer making 120k in San Francisco isn't too far below 53%.
- rayiner 11y ago
  It's only 40% in California at $120k. And 25% at the $35k level OP mentioned.
  - brianwawok 11y ago
    Which has always been one of the downsides of Cali life, your local tax bracket and your federal tax bracket are not on the same program.
- jtbigwoo 11y ago
  120k is in the top 20% of wage earners in the U.S. That's quite a bit different than $35k which is in the bottom ~30% (in the U.S.)
mattdeboard 11y ago
In addition to the other responses, remember that US federal income tax is a graduated tax rate, so even at ~40% on 120k, you're only paying 40% on your income over like 90k, lower tax rates for income in lower brackets.

jkot 11y ago

Some source on Irish taxes? Last time I checked income tax in Ireland was one of lowest in Europe. Bellow €40K (+-) was 20%, everything over 40%. Same income in Germany is taxed way higher.

yc1010 11y ago
Try this calculator, in the last few years taxes have increased a lot. Also keep in mind if you are a director of a company (Startup etc) you lose a good chunk of your tax credits Anyways to answer your question, play around with calculator http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html http://download.pwc.com/ie/budget-2015/index.html A single 30 year old (average age of HNers?) earning €100K will receive €58,869 after all the income taxes From this money he/she will have to then pay water tax, local property tax (if renting the landlord will pass it on), VAT of 23% on almost everything and so on, and god help you if you buy a car! --- 41% is the highest tax band BUT there is also USC and PRSI tax which needs to be paid which brings up the highest rate to above 50% basically there are a lot of hidden taxes and it is a very complex tax system which allows the government to make the figures appear palatable
- jahnu 11y ago
  If you can't live well €100K in Ireland you are doing something wrong. Do you realise that you are in the top ~12% of household income with that sort of money? I do sometimes wonder what kind of self-awareness people have of their status.
  - yc1010 11y ago
    I just pulled a round figure that someone working in tech either in US or EU would be expecting http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer/salary http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-developer... A lot of HN readers are from US and would be shocked at the tax rates here (on everything) and they further shocked as to how little we get to see for our tax money (no free healthcare etc)
    - 11y ago

raziel2p 11y ago

$35K monthly or yearly?

rasur 11y ago
He would be talking about yearly.

simonebrunozzi 11y ago

It is (was) great for Ireland, though. That's how they attracted tons of (large) tech companies to Ireland. It's the perfect match: low corporate tax, no incentive for people to go away and do their own startups, which means you can get paid less as there as less alternatives for you. Very smart play by Ireland. Then, the EU went back to them and told them they couldn't keep doing this, and very soon (is it 2016?) they will rack up corporate tax and make a fortune. And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon.

hopeless 11y ago
There are no plans to change the corporate tax rate and the EU have no jurisdiction in these matters. What is happening, rightly so, is the dismantling of some mechanisms which allowed large corporations to avoid paying the corporation tax at all. I think, though not sure, that this includes dismantling the double-irish arrangement where companies declared the majority of their income as expenses for licensing the product/brand etc from a parent company. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
brianwawok 11y ago
> And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon. You think? I don't think big business tends to fall into the sunk cost fallacy like we do. It may take a year to move out, but if they save no money in Ireland over the US, why stay?
pjc50 11y ago
And if you're Google, you built a large office and hired thousands of people, you're not going to leave anytime soon Plenty of people have said that about other employers in the past and come into work one day to find the doors locked.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

maccard 11y ago

Between that and the cost of property in Dublin (rental prices are insane at the minute, and I haven't looked at buying but I figure it's the same) that's why everyone graduating in ireland is leaving

reitoei 11y ago
Well they're idiots because there are plenty of really well-paying job in the tech industry.
- Kudos 11y ago
  Firstly, not everyone works in tech. But even from that perspective Dublin tech salaries do not offset the taxes and cost of living there to the point of being an idiot for leaving. Particularly if you're a high earner paying the punitive tax rates here. In my case I could move from Dublin to Silicon Valley and make 30% to 50% more cash and pay way less in taxes, I would be an idiot to not consider it.
- maccard 11y ago
  I'd love to get some links to these high-paying jobs in Dublin? Last I checked, IBM were offering sub 30k for graduates, and Microsoft weren't far off the same amount. In US terms, that's 34k USD, for a city where you'll spend 800 dollars a month of your salary on renting a room, and another 170 dollars on communting by bus.
  - reitoei 11y ago
    > Last I checked, IBM were offering sub 30k for graduates You expect to walk into an 80k a year job straight out of college? Everyone has to start somewhere. If I was a graduate, I'd much rather be working sub 30k for IBM than sub 40k for Dublin's next Groupon killer/Airbnb for iguanas.
    - maccard 11y ago
      You just said: > there are plenty of really well-paying job in the tech industry. And I can walk into an 80k job outside of Dublin. Considering the cost of living in Dublin vs the salary for tech grads versus... anywhere else in the world, you'd be crazy to stay.

pessimik 11y ago

Go to Poland - 19% flat income tax rate for companies - you can get flat by 400 euro / month in biggest cities and work remotely for foreign clients.

mootothemax 11y ago
Go to Poland - 19% flat income tax rate for companies - you can get flat by 400 euro / month in biggest cities and work remotely for foreign clients. To expand on this: one can operate as a sole trader company, and enjoy the 19% flat income tax rate. You can also register your company for VAT, and then claim back the VAT on company purchases. The only other cost is ~$270 / ~240 EUR / ~180 GBP per month in social insurance taxes. I've been here for the last five years, and the low cost of living (very low cost outside of Warsaw) combined with low taxes makes Poland a very forgiving place to be when your first few side businesses inevitably fail. (for that matter, the startup community here in Warsaw, centred somewhat around Reaktor - http://reaktorwarsaw.com http://reaktorwarsaw.com - is really picking up steam) If you do what I do - remote consulting for clients in the UK and USA - and you have the talent to charge western rates, you can build a sizeable nest egg in next to no time.
- lsaferite 11y ago
  You know what sucks. As an American I'd still have to pay American income taxes. I cannot wrap my head around how we can say that's ok. Sure, there are ways to get around a portion of the taxes, but those involve things like never coming to the US for more than a set (short) amount of time.
  - mootothemax 11y ago
    You know what sucks. As an American I'd still have to pay American income taxes. Agreed, it always feels scandalous to me whenever I hear this fact. No idea how it works in practise. I known plenty of Americans who have settled in Poland for a good portion of their lives, so it must be possible to overcome the burden. Maybe it's one of those things where, as long as you can afford to pay a good accountant (and you really should be able to afford it in Poland), they take the pain away for you?

dubcanada 11y ago

Really it's the no healthcare that is the issue. How can you tax your residents so much and not provide healthcare? My payroll tax rate in Canada is about 30% on ~$55K

yc1010 11y ago
There is "free" healthcare if you are unemployed and qualify for a medical card, tho if you open the newspapers any week you would hear all sorts of horror stories about our public hospitals. The public system is under immense stress after years of negligence and cuts so your experience of a public hospital might quite literally be your last. If you are employed you have no choice but to pay for private insurance: * Family with 2 kids ~ €2600 per year * Singe person ~ €500-€1000 per year (dependant on age etc) Tho the costs for health insurance are rising of course...

reitoei 11y ago

I did exactly this. Was contracting for 8 years in Dublin, commuting almost 3 hours daily. I was making good (but not amazing) money. Then the kids came, and that 3 hour commute became 3 hours that I could spend helping my wife or spending time with my kids. Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck.

Delmania 11y ago
> Got offered a full-time job in the tech industry with (gaaasp pension!) outside of Dublin, 5 minutes from my front door, with better salary, bonuses and healthcare. Things can work out well (and I really don't mean to sound patronizing here) with patience and a bit of luck. While it seems to have become the trend to rail against traditional 40 hour/week jobs, the stability they can offer it extremely enticing to people with families. Eevee lives with 3 other grown adults and no children. As someone looking to make the jump from a traditional job to financial independence (and self employment), I've noticed that people like Tim Ferris and Ramit Sethi all have one thing in common: no children. They are able to take the risks they can because when they fail, it's only on them. With kids and a house, it's no longer the case. The people I follow who have successfully made the transition (Mr. Money Mustahce, Simple Programmer) have all used the traditional job as a means of support until they were ready to launch. Also, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with just wanting to put in 40 hours and go home.
- reitoei 11y ago
  With kids and a mortgage, my perspective definitely shifted. I could have continued on doing what I did with the contracting, but I know for a fact that my family life would have suffered as a result. Having a 40 hour a week job is great because it gives me the ability to plan better for my family, in terms of time and money. Yes, it does feel 'transitional' but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I really like the company that I now work for, and I still have time to work on 'side projects' at home whenever I feel like it. It's also a hell of a lot stressful. I have the ability to 'let go' of work stress a lot easier than ever before.

themartorana 11y ago

Good lord, 53% tax plus 23% VAT plus utilities tax plus monthly healthcare premiums plus...? I'm a bit of a socialist living in the U.S. - I believe in higher taxes on higher earnings and universal healthcare - but what in all that is holy do you get for your tax money??

mootothemax 11y ago
Good lord, 53% tax plus 23% VAT plus utilities tax plus monthly healthcare premiums plus...? The OP's overstating their case a bit, see the tax calculator here: http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ http://services.deloitte.ie/tc/ (you'll get close to 60k in your pocket from 100k.) The wikipedia article's pretty comprehensive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_Republic_of_Ire...
- yc1010 11y ago
  Actually I was discussing that once you reach the low threshold for higher rate tax of about ~€32-33K every single euro above this will be taxed at over 50%, below this its about 20-25% depending on a wide range of circumstances and variables. This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here.
  - mootothemax 11y ago
    Actually I was discussing that once you reach the low threshold for higher rate tax of about ~€32-33K every single euro above this will be taxed at over 50%, below this its about 20-25% depending on a wide range of circumstances and variables. Honestly, I'm genuinely not scandalised about the rates you've listed; they seem pretty standard for Europe. This punitive tax regime makes you question as to why bother working longer and harder and kills any will to start new projects since you know you will be robbed if you ever (in the unlikely minority) become successful A top rate of 50% isn't that scandalous. It's a lot, and there are plenty of means to reduce it. Personally, I'm far more concerned about getting the point where the top tax rate is a serious problem for me in the first place. AND to add insult to injury you do not get much for your taxes and from your after tax income you endup paying all sorts of further hidden taxes just to live here. I fear that if you think living elsewhere is going to result in a major change on your life from the tax rate alone, the options are few and far between. I've heard that you either love or hate Dubai, for instance. (of course, there are always exceptions on prices of e.g. clothing, computing goods etc. etc. Always idly tempting to imagine moving somewhere that doesn't have VAT!)

stephengillie 11y ago

> All of these taxes really make you ask yourself "why bother work harder and longer" and really kill any incentive to work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

esharte 11y ago

>~53% high tax rate with only about ~$35K in income I'm sorry but you cant just go on to HN and make stuff up. You pay 20% on the first €33,800 income and only 40% on income over €33,800 if single. You pay 20% on the first €42,800 income and only 40% on income over €42,800 if Married with one income. You pay 20% on the first €67,600 income and only 40% on income over €67,600 if Married with two incomes. You pay 20% on the first €37,800 income and only 40% on income over €37,800 if a single parent.

fragsworth 11y ago
Maybe including City / Local taxes?
- rmc 11y ago
  Nope. I'm Irish and confirm those figures. There is no city or local taxes in Ireland. (Ireland, with a population of 4.5mil isn't split into many different juristicions like the USA)
yc1010 11y ago
Way to ignore USC (Universal Social Charge) and PRSI (Pay Related Social Insurance), these two alone + income taxes add up to over 50% rate on every euro earned above about 32-33K thats without even going into property tax which could also be taken out of your income (and probably water tax soon) The government has deliberately made the "income" taxes so complicated with 3 major different variables, and plenty of other minor nuances dependent on the persons circumstance In my case for 2014: ---- Gross Pay €32,876.69 Income Tax €4,941.44 USC €1,620.17 PRSI €1,315.08 Net Pay €25,000 ---- Thats for tax year 2014 (wasn't married yet, own company director), any euros earned above this I would have had to pay a rate of 50%+ tax (income+usc+prsi), This year it is a little less (few hundred euro) due to getting married and budget 2015 being a tiny bit more forgiving. You have ignored PRSI and USC and ignored that company directors lose a good chunk of their tax credits (and to add insult to injury no longer qualify for full welfare when things go bad!) for bothering to start a company, I suppose you work for someone else and do not comprehend how toxic the tax regime is towards small businesses. Revenue views all small business and sole traders with absolute disdain the EXPECT them all too be crooked and ASSUME you are guilty of tax fraud and place the onus on you to PROVE you are innocent of any tax misdoings (which costs time and accounting money)...