6 ms·

The borderless SIM is finally here

33 points by Libertatea 11y ago

cosmolev 11y ago
So what is the advantage over having two separate SIMs and switching them at the border? You still have two telephone numbers with only one being active at a particular moment.
- cowsandmilk 11y ago
  The advantage is not having to switch them... Your phone does it for you. I mean, it isn't like the border between the Netherlands and Belgium is always straightforward[1]. [1] http://www.iamdanw.com/wrote/what-are-borders-anyway/ http://www.iamdanw.com/wrote/what-are-borders-anyway/
  - cosmolev 11y ago
    That's not even a workaround. I still need to give people both numbers and instruct them when they should call one or another. That's the pain carriers should address.
- abandonliberty 11y ago
  Multi-sim phones are already popular in many countries. I've heard that some can even swap carrier based on time of day or the particular service used (long distance, 3g, etc)
culturestate 11y ago
This isn't as new or novel as the article makes it sound, though I suspect getting it done in Europe was difficult. Similar options have been available for years in China; most (all?) of the major carriers offer cross-border SIMs for Hong Kong and Macau, e.g. [1]. They're available in both prepaid and postpaid, and generally offer the same rate for calls, SMS, and data within major cities (i.e. Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, and Guangzhou, which probably covers 90% of cross-border travel.) 1. http://www.three.com.hk/website/appmanager/three/home?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=P200470391219567710594&lang=eng&pageid=561001 http://www.three.com.hk/website/appmanager/three/home?_nfpb=...
phlo 11y ago
Instead of a SIM with one number that works across countries, the article discusses routing both a belgian and a luxembourgian number to the same SIM. The customer is then apparently billed by both telcos, depending on where they currently are. This seems like the worst solution to the roaming problem out there: Multiple phone numbers, relations to multiple carriers... With (existing) competitors like OneSimCard or Project Fi, you get a single phone number, a single bill and (what seems to me like) a much better deal. Am I missing something there?
- rb2k_ 11y ago
  You are right in that it seems like a impractical solution and the providers should just figure out roaming. As far as the competition goes: OneSimCard charges 25 cents per Megabyte, Project Fi doesn't really exist since you need an invite and it doesn't work on most phones.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Roaming exists, works, and is often horribly expensive to the user. This is basically a system for arbitraging that away using two numbers on one SIM rather than two SIMs.
brc 11y ago
I've never understood why roaming charges are so scandalous. Surely the telecoms know if they dropped their prices they would make a lot more money?
- zurn 11y ago
  They probably make a reasonable amount of roaming money from business or government travellers with company phones who don't care about getting billed €30/day on their short trip with expensive hotels and flights.
- mschuster91 11y ago
  Part of the problem is that country governments extracted a shitload of money out of the telcos. In Germany, the telcos paid a combined 96.000.000.000 € for the UMTS frequencies in 2000 (making 1200€ per citizen, assuming 80M citizens in Germany), and in 2010 another 3.600.000.000 €. Now add the enormous capital requirement of first building a countrywide network of GSM BTS, then upgrade these to UMTS, then to LTE (and, of course, always having to upgrade the backhaul links) and you see why mobile phone operators try to squeeze any penny out of the customer's pocket they can.
  - pgeorgi 11y ago
    'extracted' as in 'run an auction to let the market sort it out'. It's popular to blame governments for everything, but if market actors behave irrationally, there's nobody to blame but them.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Indeed, people are always saying "let the market decide". We ran a market. It decided.
      - pyvpx 11y ago
        to the detriment of the citizens of Germany, as they pay more for less than just about anyone in the EU for mobile data.
z02d 11y ago
Also interesting: http://www.politico.eu/article/data-telecoms-europe-divide/ http://www.politico.eu/article/data-telecoms-europe-divide/ http://www.transatel-datasim.com http://www.transatel-datasim.com
beseku 11y ago
I've just come back from Europe (Spain) for the the first time with my operator and their new free roaming plan - it was amazing. I pay Three £15 p/m for unlimited data, lots of intra-Three calls and some messages/calls to other networks (in the country I'm in at the time) and can now do that not just in the UK but in Spain, the US, Australia and more (http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home). That's cheaper than most local operators and a much better example than whats offered here. I'd wager it won't be long before Three sims are being picked up by tourists and used as their main operator back at home.
- m_t 11y ago
  I'm using Three too with the same plan, but when I'm in a Feel At Home destination, I still pay if I send a texts to a local number. It is not included in my general texts allowance. Am I doing something wrong? The data itself is free though, which is the most important for me. It is definitely better than having to go to a phone store and get a cheap sim.
  - koyote 11y ago
    Feel At Home basically means that your mobile will act the same as if you were in the UK. Sending a text from the UK to a (for example) Spanish number incurs a cost outside of your allowance. So that same text would also incur a cost when you are in Spain.
    - geocar 11y ago
      I've set up Google Voice -> US SIP -> UK SIP -> 3 Mobile. This gives me a US number to give out to Americans (who don't want to dial my UK number) that they can text/call. I can then make calls when on Wifi or using a Phonecard app which automatically dials my UK SIP and forwards the call via the US SIP provider. I don't have to switch SIMs or give up my UK number. This works well for me (since I travel between the US/UK often)
      - koyote 11y ago
zhte415 11y ago
Don't Blackberry do flat rates globally, voice and data? At they did where I last worked and had a Blackberry. About $100 per month, unlimited (at least, that's how much it was charged internally).
kyriakos 11y ago
travelling to Germany / France / Luxembourg next month and was wondering if there's a good solution for mobile data? I hear in germany you can't get a local sim card unless you are a resident. is that true?
- rb2k_ 11y ago
  For Germany that's false. You can get usually get one of the "no-frills" prepaid providers at any supermarket register (Medion Mobile at Aldi, Lidl Mobile at Lidl, jamobil at Rewe, ...). You will usually need internet to activate it. I (native German, living in the US) usually just use my american T-Mobile SIM. Thanks to their free global data roaming, I don't have to care which country I'm in when visiting Europe. It is "unlimited", but they throttle you to something like 10 kb/s. Still works fine for Maps/eMail/Facebook/... It's honestly not thaaat bad because I still had LTE, so the latency was great, just the throughput was mediocre. I was even able to use Facetime Audio. T-Mobile also supports WiFi calling on my iPhone, so as soon as I had WiFi, I was able to just call people back in the US for free.
- cosmolev 11y ago
  btw, there is this great website with always up to date information about national SIMs : http://www.prepaidgsm.net/en/operators.php http://www.prepaidgsm.net/en/operators.php
Galanwe 11y ago
Sorry, but there is nothing new here. Skype has been providing this service for years now. It could either be achieved by buying a "Skype number" in the country you are visiting, or by using "Skype To Go". And you don't have to dual-sim, you can route numbers wherever you want.
- thrownaway122 11y ago
  And where does your data get paid for?
Galanwe 11y ago
Sorry, but there is nothing new here. Skype has been providing this service for years now. It could either be achieved by buying a "Skype number" in the country you are visiting, or by using "Skype To Go". And you don't have to dual-sim, you can route numbers wherever you want.
adibchoudhury 11y ago
Roaming just isn't a practical solution (way too expensive) but neither is this. Honestly swapping out SIMs between country isn't too difficult of a task, and likely saves you a ton of money when compared to roaming or this "borderless SIM." Lots of countries go with cheap prepaid options anyways.
- ghshephard 11y ago
  The problem with swapping out SIMs is that people who have your phone number can't contact you. AT&T Roaming typically costs about $500-$800/month with their international plan for $120/ 800 MB roaming, $150/Gigabyte. It's a pretty common plan for US road warriors who are probably racking up $20,000-$25,000 in Hotel/flight charges already.
dionys 11y ago
I am customer of O2 in my home country - Slovakia and I currently live in Czech Republic. O2 recently came up with a program that allows me to pay exact same charges as I would at home (both phone and data). It is much simpler to have one number than numerous SIM cards...
- vetinari 11y ago
  O2 SK always had a somewhat funny relationship with Czech republic. It used to be cheaper to call from Slovakia or from roaming in CZ, than local Czech calls.
MacsHeadroom 11y ago
T-Mobile offers unlimited 4G in 113 countries for $90USD/month. I travel often and haven't had any issues using it to call and text via Google Hangouts.
- ac29 11y ago
  Is this a specific plan? The plans I know of with unlimited data in foreign countries are hardly 4G -- they might technically connect to 4G/LTE, but they are throttled to 128kbit/s. That's roughly equivalent to some of the 2G-3G transitional technology speeds. GPRS (2.5G) was 80kbit/s, EDGE (2.75G) was 2-3x that [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service#Channel_encoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service#C...
benjohnson 11y ago
If you just need a global "page-me-if-somthing-horrid-happens" the Iridium based DeLorme InReach works well - there's a pay as you go plans for about $24 + $.50 per message. The nice thing is they really do work anywhere, and the per-page-costs keep your family and coworkers from spamming you during a nice vacation - yet they can get ahold of you for a true emergency.

33 points by Libertatea 11y ago

So what is the advantage over having two separate SIMs and switching them at the border? You still have two telephone numbers with only one being active at a particular moment.

cowsandmilk 11y ago
The advantage is not having to switch them... Your phone does it for you. I mean, it isn't like the border between the Netherlands and Belgium is always straightforward[1]. [1] http://www.iamdanw.com/wrote/what-are-borders-anyway/ http://www.iamdanw.com/wrote/what-are-borders-anyway/
- cosmolev 11y ago
  That's not even a workaround. I still need to give people both numbers and instruct them when they should call one or another. That's the pain carriers should address.
abandonliberty 11y ago
Multi-sim phones are already popular in many countries. I've heard that some can even swap carrier based on time of day or the particular service used (long distance, 3g, etc)

culturestate 11y ago

This isn't as new or novel as the article makes it sound, though I suspect getting it done in Europe was difficult. Similar options have been available for years in China; most (all?) of the major carriers offer cross-border SIMs for Hong Kong and Macau, e.g. [1]. They're available in both prepaid and postpaid, and generally offer the same rate for calls, SMS, and data within major cities (i.e. Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, and Guangzhou, which probably covers 90% of cross-border travel.) 1. http://www.three.com.hk/website/appmanager/three/home?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=P200470391219567710594&lang=eng&pageid=561001 http://www.three.com.hk/website/appmanager/three/home?_nfpb=...

phlo 11y ago

Instead of a SIM with one number that works across countries, the article discusses routing both a belgian and a luxembourgian number to the same SIM. The customer is then apparently billed by both telcos, depending on where they currently are. This seems like the worst solution to the roaming problem out there: Multiple phone numbers, relations to multiple carriers... With (existing) competitors like OneSimCard or Project Fi, you get a single phone number, a single bill and (what seems to me like) a much better deal. Am I missing something there?

rb2k_ 11y ago
You are right in that it seems like a impractical solution and the providers should just figure out roaming. As far as the competition goes: OneSimCard charges 25 cents per Megabyte, Project Fi doesn't really exist since you need an invite and it doesn't work on most phones.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Roaming exists, works, and is often horribly expensive to the user. This is basically a system for arbitraging that away using two numbers on one SIM rather than two SIMs.

brc 11y ago

I've never understood why roaming charges are so scandalous. Surely the telecoms know if they dropped their prices they would make a lot more money?

zurn 11y ago
They probably make a reasonable amount of roaming money from business or government travellers with company phones who don't care about getting billed €30/day on their short trip with expensive hotels and flights.
mschuster91 11y ago
Part of the problem is that country governments extracted a shitload of money out of the telcos. In Germany, the telcos paid a combined 96.000.000.000 € for the UMTS frequencies in 2000 (making 1200€ per citizen, assuming 80M citizens in Germany), and in 2010 another 3.600.000.000 €. Now add the enormous capital requirement of first building a countrywide network of GSM BTS, then upgrade these to UMTS, then to LTE (and, of course, always having to upgrade the backhaul links) and you see why mobile phone operators try to squeeze any penny out of the customer's pocket they can.
- pgeorgi 11y ago
  'extracted' as in 'run an auction to let the market sort it out'. It's popular to blame governments for everything, but if market actors behave irrationally, there's nobody to blame but them.
  - pjc50 11y ago
    Indeed, people are always saying "let the market decide". We ran a market. It decided.
    - pyvpx 11y ago
      to the detriment of the citizens of Germany, as they pay more for less than just about anyone in the EU for mobile data.

z02d 11y ago

Also interesting: http://www.politico.eu/article/data-telecoms-europe-divide/ http://www.politico.eu/article/data-telecoms-europe-divide/ http://www.transatel-datasim.com http://www.transatel-datasim.com

beseku 11y ago

I've just come back from Europe (Spain) for the the first time with my operator and their new free roaming plan - it was amazing. I pay Three £15 p/m for unlimited data, lots of intra-Three calls and some messages/calls to other networks (in the country I'm in at the time) and can now do that not just in the UK but in Spain, the US, Australia and more (http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home http://www.three.co.uk/Discover/Phones/Feel_At_Home). That's cheaper than most local operators and a much better example than whats offered here. I'd wager it won't be long before Three sims are being picked up by tourists and used as their main operator back at home.

m_t 11y ago
I'm using Three too with the same plan, but when I'm in a Feel At Home destination, I still pay if I send a texts to a local number. It is not included in my general texts allowance. Am I doing something wrong? The data itself is free though, which is the most important for me. It is definitely better than having to go to a phone store and get a cheap sim.
- koyote 11y ago
  Feel At Home basically means that your mobile will act the same as if you were in the UK. Sending a text from the UK to a (for example) Spanish number incurs a cost outside of your allowance. So that same text would also incur a cost when you are in Spain.
  - geocar 11y ago
    I've set up Google Voice -> US SIP -> UK SIP -> 3 Mobile. This gives me a US number to give out to Americans (who don't want to dial my UK number) that they can text/call. I can then make calls when on Wifi or using a Phonecard app which automatically dials my UK SIP and forwards the call via the US SIP provider. I don't have to switch SIMs or give up my UK number. This works well for me (since I travel between the US/UK often)
    - koyote 11y ago

zhte415 11y ago

Don't Blackberry do flat rates globally, voice and data? At they did where I last worked and had a Blackberry. About $100 per month, unlimited (at least, that's how much it was charged internally).

kyriakos 11y ago

travelling to Germany / France / Luxembourg next month and was wondering if there's a good solution for mobile data? I hear in germany you can't get a local sim card unless you are a resident. is that true?

rb2k_ 11y ago
For Germany that's false. You can get usually get one of the "no-frills" prepaid providers at any supermarket register (Medion Mobile at Aldi, Lidl Mobile at Lidl, jamobil at Rewe, ...). You will usually need internet to activate it. I (native German, living in the US) usually just use my american T-Mobile SIM. Thanks to their free global data roaming, I don't have to care which country I'm in when visiting Europe. It is "unlimited", but they throttle you to something like 10 kb/s. Still works fine for Maps/eMail/Facebook/... It's honestly not thaaat bad because I still had LTE, so the latency was great, just the throughput was mediocre. I was even able to use Facetime Audio. T-Mobile also supports WiFi calling on my iPhone, so as soon as I had WiFi, I was able to just call people back in the US for free.
cosmolev 11y ago
btw, there is this great website with always up to date information about national SIMs : http://www.prepaidgsm.net/en/operators.php http://www.prepaidgsm.net/en/operators.php

Galanwe 11y ago

Sorry, but there is nothing new here. Skype has been providing this service for years now. It could either be achieved by buying a "Skype number" in the country you are visiting, or by using "Skype To Go". And you don't have to dual-sim, you can route numbers wherever you want.

thrownaway122 11y ago
And where does your data get paid for?

Galanwe 11y ago

adibchoudhury 11y ago

Roaming just isn't a practical solution (way too expensive) but neither is this. Honestly swapping out SIMs between country isn't too difficult of a task, and likely saves you a ton of money when compared to roaming or this "borderless SIM." Lots of countries go with cheap prepaid options anyways.

ghshephard 11y ago
The problem with swapping out SIMs is that people who have your phone number can't contact you. AT&T Roaming typically costs about $500-$800/month with their international plan for $120/ 800 MB roaming, $150/Gigabyte. It's a pretty common plan for US road warriors who are probably racking up $20,000-$25,000 in Hotel/flight charges already.

dionys 11y ago

I am customer of O2 in my home country - Slovakia and I currently live in Czech Republic. O2 recently came up with a program that allows me to pay exact same charges as I would at home (both phone and data). It is much simpler to have one number than numerous SIM cards...

vetinari 11y ago
O2 SK always had a somewhat funny relationship with Czech republic. It used to be cheaper to call from Slovakia or from roaming in CZ, than local Czech calls.

MacsHeadroom 11y ago

T-Mobile offers unlimited 4G in 113 countries for $90USD/month. I travel often and haven't had any issues using it to call and text via Google Hangouts.

ac29 11y ago
Is this a specific plan? The plans I know of with unlimited data in foreign countries are hardly 4G -- they might technically connect to 4G/LTE, but they are throttled to 128kbit/s. That's roughly equivalent to some of the 2G-3G transitional technology speeds. GPRS (2.5G) was 80kbit/s, EDGE (2.75G) was 2-3x that [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service#Channel_encoding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service#C...

benjohnson 11y ago

If you just need a global "page-me-if-somthing-horrid-happens" the Iridium based DeLorme InReach works well - there's a pay as you go plans for about $24 + $.50 per message. The nice thing is they really do work anywhere, and the per-page-costs keep your family and coworkers from spamming you during a nice vacation - yet they can get ahold of you for a true emergency.