8 ms·

Ask HN: How to reskill without losing income?

• vkjv 11y ago
  > Are there any companies that would be willing to hire a grumpy 30-something and recognise his/her experience as something reusable? Yes. I work for a large company that does recognize this and does not hire for specific stack experience. We have a hard enough time finding enough good people, regardless of specific experience, to use that as a critical factor.
• a3voices 11y ago
  You could do work at night on side projects to learn new skills.
  • druml 11y ago
    Better if you could do it together with others. Join a study group of the tech you want to learn or even try going to relevant hackathons.
    • a3voices 11y ago
      That's not always available depending on where you live, but possibly a good idea.
    • mooreds 11y ago
      > a study group of the tech you want to learn Aka an open source project that is written in the stack you want to learn.
• colinbartlett 11y ago
  Maybe start by attending user groups or meet-ups on the tech you're interested in. That might lead to some potential freelancing gigs or even just some open source work in that field. But, in general, I think many, many companies are willing to hire 30-somethings with experience. Perhaps seed-funded startups aim for cheap low end labor, but enterprises and well-funded startups consistently value experience over skills with a specific stack or language.
• derptron 11y ago
  You're going to have to do it on your own time. Make it a pet project, make it visible on github, and make sure to link it on your resume so potential employers can see what you're capable. of.
• lastofus 11y ago
  > I think if I applied for a job I'd get rejected as there is no track record of being able to work with that tech. This is a big assumption, that is simply not true for a lot of opportunities out there. If you are able to show proficiency in what they are looking for, many companies will take you seriously as a candidate, even without 5+ years on the resume in said technology. Worst thing you can do for yourself is to not try and apply. Worse case is you get a "no thanks" and you move on to the next application.
  • mooreds 11y ago
    If this is the case, why do people put tech under the 'requirements' section, rather than the 'desired'? Hiring managers, you are going to get what you ask for.
    • VLM 11y ago
      At least some of those are H1B posts to prove there's no one in the locality with seven years experience with Windows10. Some are also pencil whipping a HR checklist before hiring the bosses kid or the hand picked internal candidate. You want a CCIE and are offering $50K? No one applying is not necessarily seen as a bug. At megacorps the relationship between the people writing reqs and the actual job are often rather strained. I could never qualify for my own job req, and I work there. I got in via networking and portfolio. Seriously, HR lists specific versions of AS/400 software and the department doesn't even work that closely with the AS/400 group, ya know. In fact I think my AS/400 password expired, aged out so I need to regain access, although I really don't need it. People in my department "need" windows 8 experience but our desktops are win7? A+ certification preferred because everyone in my great-grand department requires it on paper? You listed the exact model number and firmware version of a specific spectrum analyzer from a company that is no longer in business under that name? Seriously?
      • vonmoltke 11y ago
        See, this is a major dysfunction when combined with the unwillingness to give rejection reasons. How is one supposed to know when they get a form letter rejection if it was because this particular company is actually serious about their asinine "requirements"?
• deedubaya 11y ago
  If you have an employer, this is usually a pretty easy sell. Approach your boss about transitioning Aging Product X to a new technology stack because the current one is becoming defunct. Of course this will require some training for you, but it is easier to teach you a new skill set than to hire someone with that skill set and get them to learn about Aging Product X. If you aren't employed and are contracting/freelance, it is just as easy. Since your skill set is niche, not everyone has it, and you can charge more for that niche. Up your rates enough that you can cut 10 hours a week out to study something new.
  • nemmonszz 11y ago
    Is convincing employers to transition technology stacks really something that is generally considered easy (or even doable)? I'm stuck maintaining 'enterprise' software running on VB6 and ColdFusion 9 and the idea of getting my employers to sanction a migration to something newer is laughable.
    • mcdougle 11y ago
      We're finally starting to consider talking about transitioning old software from Access 97 to a C# .NET web app at my job.
    • wmil 11y ago
      Honestly if they expect you to maintain that code then your salary should reflect the long term damage to your career and sanity.
    • lsc 11y ago
      It's a thing. I don't know about convincing employers, but employers do it. I've participated in such projects. hell, I know people who have done such things in government and military contracting contexts. It does happen so yeah, it happens. Legacy systems are re-written. convincing your employer? yeah, I've never seen that part happen, so I can't say anything, but I certainly have seen the aftermath.
    • grayclhn 11y ago
• GFischer 11y ago
  Doing consulting work? If you can solve companies' problems, they won't mind if you don't have a track record with that particular stack.
• darklajid 11y ago
  Thanks a lot for asking this - I'm in a similar boat¹ and will follow this thread with interest. Good luck from another 30-something. ① For me 'niche tech' is one thing, and 'investing a lot of time in the bowels of the corporate product over 10 years' the other one - the latter just WILL go away if I switch and is absolutely not useful elsewhere
  • GrinningFool 11y ago
    Don't underestimate the value of the lessons you've learned in the bowels of that corporate product. Consider: 1) You have experience in a corporate environment. You know the kinds of things that terrify them, and you know the kind of experience they expect from the companies they interact with. This knowledge and perspective is incredibly valuable to any startup in the b2b space. 2) The problems you solved - while maybe specific to the corporate product - generalize well. There's a better-than-even chance you had to deal with managing data from multiple inputs, scaling and performance, build management, testing issues (even if experience in pain of not having it), product delivery, and/or user experience. These things are not as different as you might expect. Reference: I spent many years working for a Large Bank developing in-house software before transitioning into the startup world. THe biggest problem I had faced was my complacency - somewhere along the way I gave up on pushing to do things better, and it took me a while to get that back. In that way I was fortunate that I came to work for a company that gave me the time I needed to do that.
    • darklajid 11y ago
      Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm not totally pessimistic, I was really referring to the knowledge that doesn't translate to a new job. After 10 years and working deeply with a lot of stuff I am among the 'Do you know..?' types for questions about the inner workings of the product. That is really just baggage. Processes, experiences probably can be reapplied elsewhere. But having read some C files from 1996 (I .. didn't work at that company at that time), reciting the product's API every evening after dinner and being intimately familiar with the current .Net code base is time invested in this job and this job only.
• deleted 11y ago
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• hkarthik 11y ago
  I did this back in 2009. Here's how to do it. Pick a technology stack that you want to get a job in and build a side project in your spare time. Attend meetups with experts in your local community and learn how to make it awesome. Build relationships with them along the way. Use those relationships to get some part-time contract work in said technology stack with someone local. Document this experience and build up a portfolio. Eventually, use the knowledge you've obtained from your side project and part time contract work to apply for full time jobs. You'll then be very marketable, and you will have enough knowledge to do well in interviews. Good luck!
  • oskarth 11y ago
    This is great advice!
  • WorldWideWayne 11y ago
    And (this might be obvious), but read, read, read! That's what works for me at least. Articles, books, blogs, IRC, IRC chat logs, Github issues, etc. When I am learning something new I might spend a few days (or even weeks depending on the subject) reading around about it before I take that first step to build my side project.
    • marcos123 11y ago
      My brain works the opposite way, so I would caution against this. I don't truly learn until I actually start doing.
      • philjr 11y ago
        In my experience you need to do both!
    • newton10471 11y ago
      Reading to learn is not borne out by research as a good way to build and retain skills, and can just as likely create illusions of competence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect. Research shows it's far better to just start doing the activity. The reading should just be used to get you just to the point where you can start doing.
• nasalgoat 11y ago
  When I interview people, I am less interested in their specific experience than I am in their ability to think and troubleshoot problems. Google solves the knowledge problem but doesn't solve the problem of intelligently using that info. I imagine other employers are similar, and given the high demand for tech workers, you might be surprised at the reactions.
  • HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    I do the same, but from reading a lot of comments in similar threads here, it seems that we're a minority. Many (most?) employers want to hire people with only the exact skills & technologies they're currently using. I was hired into my original position here knowing absolutely nothing about the language or the technology. Like you, my manager just wanted raw talent that could be retrained and it worked out for him. That's probably colored my interviewing practices over the years, but an awful lot of people don't want to take that kind of a risk.
    • VLM 11y ago
      "but an awful lot of people don't want to take that kind of a risk" I would agree with and extend your remarks in that its a window into how the company handles risk. There have been companies that have blamestorming meetings to punish the people who selected employees that didn't work out. I had an experience with that leveraging an inside contact for info, and I was pretty pissed off at that time, but now that I'm older and wiser I am so unimaginably happy I didn't get a job at a company mismanaged like that.
  • millzlane 11y ago
    I would enjoy working with people who think this way. I interviewed at Cisco last week and got hung up on a couple of technical questions about the mount command in Linux. Long story short it seemed like the interviewer wanted me to know every option or switch for the commands he asked about. I would have just looked in man pages for the switch that I required or the usage. For commands I would hardly ever use even on a production system. He told me my Linux skills were weak ha. It may be true, but at least I could find the answer without google. The hosting company I interviewed at told me to feel free to Google it, "I'm good I just need man pages." It's like knowing how to spell. Just because you don't know how to spell a word doesn't mean you don't know how it's used in a sentence. If you know how to locate the word in a dictionary you have the right answer.
• mrj 11y ago
  My advice: thinking it is just "different keywords" is exactly why you may lose income. The syntax may be easy to change but you're changing an entire stack that will have it's own conventions, history and culture. If you want to be paid well, it's an awful lot more than just keywords.
• nilkn 11y ago
  Do companies really try to pigeonhole developers into "tech stacks" so much that you'll be forced to revert to junior status to change? Unless we're talking about COBOL -> Haskell here, I think any decent company would be wary of overvaluing skills with a particular language or framework and undervaluing fundamentals.
  • ExpiredLink 11y ago
    > Do companies really try to pigeonhole developers into "tech stacks" so much that you'll be forced to revert to junior status to change? Yes, they do. Moreover, you don't even get a junior position because you don't have adequate education and/or experience.
    • nilkn 11y ago
      Well, my company doesn't, nor have other companies I've interviewed with and received offers from. I'd be very hesitant to join such a company. I've interviewed with "top" companies like Google as well and they've never seemed to care about this stuff. This sounds more like a way to hire a contractor, not an engineer you will invest in who will be a full member of the team for potentially a very long time.
      • vonmoltke 11y ago
        > Well, my company doesn't, nor have other companies I've interviewed with and received offers from. I'd be very hesitant to join such a company. I've interviewed with "top" companies like Google as well and they've never seemed to care about this stuff. My experience has been that the vast majority of non-software tech companies care quite a bit about these specifics. They are also much more likely to pigeonhole you.
        • nilkn 11y ago
          Maybe I haven't witnessed this so much because I've always made it a point to only consider companies where software is the core product and profit center and developers are the main employees.
• pcsanwald 11y ago
  As someone who does a lot of hiring for a startup, I will say I'm agnostic with regards to languages and frameworks. We've hired folks with all sorts of disparate backgrounds including embedded C (we mostly use Java and JavaScript). I think you should sell yourself as an experienced technologist who's looking to learn. You should also demonstrate a willingness and ability to learn new things; maybe by making something and putting it up on github.
  • wwweston 11y ago
    I'm so glad to see this. Especially when the point of a given stack is supposed to be that it makes life easier for developers, I think it's weird that there's so much emphasis on knowledge specific to given stacks, to the point where it may be this is a tacit admission that our stacks are their own problems requiring attention we could be giving to our problem domain.
  • aswanson 11y ago
    How did the embedded c person make the transition?
  • JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    "... I will say I'm agnostic with regards to languages and frameworks." You get an up vote for that.
  • Cerium 11y ago
    Agree! I got hired at my current job with embedded c and hobbyist PHP background. First day on the job the boss said "You know PHP and C right? Start learning Ruby." I worked hard but it went well.
  • brianfryer 11y ago
    This is an excellent point. We hired an engineer at the startup I work at who had a lot of Java experience but very little Ruby experience—our stack's primary language. He was a fast learner and had no issues getting up to speed in a reasonable amount of time.
• sjcrank 11y ago
  I have found it is much easier to switch to a new stack within your existing employer than it is to get hired for a stack for which you have no professional experience. Here are the steps: a. find employment at a company that requires your niche skillset but also has projects in your desired tech stack (hopefully this is your current employer) b. learn enough of the desired tech stack on your own to be a useful contributor c. ask to switch over to a project using your new stack, or volunteer to write tests or help in some other way to get your foot in the door (this may require some persistence and relationship-building) d. once you have some experience you are ready to add it to your resume and seek your dream job
  • fecak 11y ago
    This is advice that many seem to overlook. Leverage the current skills to get exposure to the ones that you want. It is not always easy to find companies that both use your dated skill and the skill you want. Devs at those companies probably aren't that interested in using the old technologies, so you should be welcomed for your willingness to do the job they don't want to do in exchange for learning something new.
  • joesmo 11y ago
    Me too. I started an open source project on my own time that helped me learn but was also useful to the company. Only took a couple of evenings and it didn't have all the functionality we needed but it was useful. I was able to get it adopted and now am working on our for work, though most features are complete since it's a small server project. This is just an example and it probably won't work everywhere but it's an option sometimes.
• vinceguidry 11y ago
  You would not get rejected if you applied for a job without a track record, at least, not out of hand. I've been hired to work on .NET having never had worked on it before. You do not need side projects or to train yourself. Just the ability to project confidence.
• vkjv 11y ago
  I'm curious about something similar, but perhaps more drastic. I went to college for EE, but after graduating got a job in software. I enjoy computer engineering much more than software, but at this point I'm 5 years into my career and I don't see a way that I could ever switch paths without taking a critical hit in income.
• personlurking 11y ago
  My issue is similar, though not so tech-related. I do VA work for some startups but would like to get into a growing interest of mine (journalism), though my time is limited. I have experience as a writer, but not a background in journalism. I could make the complete jump to being a journo and self-publish, shop stories and find my way, but that'd mean giving up what pays the bills (pay & responsibilities of which are currently on the rise). Doing what I want to do means way more work and, very likely, less pay. Does anyone else here juggle two different jobs? Is there a secret to doing so?
• brudgers 11y ago
  Career changes also allow for switching roles. There's no reason to keep playing grumpy at a new job. First because good workplaces are often good because they don't place a premium on grumpy, and second because at companies that value grumpy that slot is likely to be filled. I'd throw in that thirty-something is a bit young to be the go-to-get-off-my-lawn person. Good luck.
• serve_yay 11y ago
  I switched from doing back-end C# work to front-end JS by switching jobs at my employer. I basically reskilled on their dime. If you're a talented engineer and your company doesn't suck, they should be relatively accommodating to this idea. Engineers get bored and want to switch it up, smart companies and smart managers get this.
• newobj 11y ago
  I've worked for 20 years and never targeted myself towards a tech stack. In fact, I think spreading yourself over lots of different tech is a better bet for longevity, even if not optimal in some short-term capacity. Being able to adapt quickly to new paradigms is the quality necessary for long-run viability. And when you have a track record of successfully doing that, no one will question your ability to do it in a new setting.
• digitalboss 11y ago
  I'v really enjoyed seeing what companies such as tradecraft have doing around this sort tactic http://tradecrafted.com/ http://tradecrafted.com/ - check them out.
• ngneer 11y ago
  READING THE THREAD IS DEPRESSING AND ENCOURAGING BUT THE SHORT ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION SEEMS TO BE NO
• ngneer 11y ago
  I am in the exact same position. Summarizing the responses, the short answer to your question is no, there is no escape.
• martin-adams 11y ago
  >> I think if I applied for a job I'd get rejected Only one way to know for sure.
• cpitkin 11y ago
  As someone who is trying to move into the development space from a more sys admin role this is great to hear. I have a similar idea about learning new things. I just dive in with both feet and start building, watching tutorials, and reading the docs. I have been working on Nodejs/Meteorjs apps in my spare time. I am just going to keep building little side projects to get better and learning all I can along the way. Glad to see I am on the right track and that others have had success managing their career path. Thanks for all the great advice! Moral of the thread: Never stop learning!
• ofcapl_ 11y ago
  It is a good question! Personally, I've got my first full-time job thanks mostly to own side projects in my portfolio - I was hired even without code challenge during recruit process - so listen to 75% of comments here - do some side projects, built a solid portfolio and apply. You can also try some contract work/start own business and do some simply projects that one-man-band can handle - I was trying that too and after every project I've felt that my skills got a boost. Best, ł.
• adnam 11y ago
  PHP programmer, right?
• swalsh 11y ago
  I just switched from C# to Ruby. Honestly the switch has not been that big of deal. The company is giving me some time to learn, and the switch has been pretty painless. I think if you want to switch, I think its more important to demonstrate skills in the base skill set (in my case software architecture), and then there are plenty of people willing to give you some room to grow.
• testingonprod 11y ago
  https://nextdoor.com/jobs/?gh_jid=424 https://nextdoor.com/jobs/?gh_jid=424 We don't care about what tech stack you know, we're willing to teach you ours. We just need you to be extremely motivated and ready to go!
• jsamos 11y ago
  Sounds like you're confident in you ability to pick up any stack. I wouldn't wait. Good companies hire smart people. I just switched to a great company with a stack I had zero experience with. Hasn't been a problem at all.
• xchaotic 11y ago
  Thank you soo much for all the comments so far. I didn't expect such positive respone. It definitely encourages me to try new things over the summer.
• wyclif 11y ago
  I also went through this a few years ago. I was a land surveyor and although I loved the combination of technical, mathematical, and analytic skill with working in the great outdoors, the subprime mortgage crisis resulted in big commercial land development contracts drying up. You have to be single-minded and goal-oriented. Another HN user above says to "pick a technology stack" and focus down on it. That's great advice. I already had some experience on the LAMP stack and I built up from there. Don't let yourself get distracted after you've decided the direction you see yourself moving in. Work on side projects. Go to meetups. Find people you can collaborate with and work well with you. See if you can get some PT work that is being parceled out by companies because their own FT devs are too busy. If you're allowed to expose your code, build up your Github. Don't forget to visualise where you see yourself going, and don't be afraid to tell people where you're headed. Also, make productivity apps work for you. Have a Dropbox file where you keep all your technical books, and have that file open all the time. Subscribe to Pinboard or some other bookmarking service to save technical blog posts and documentation you want to read. Use Trello to manage your projects. Etc. Good luck to you.
• Robert_Webonise 11y ago
  If you're a senior level developer (ie: if you've been doing development more than 7+ years), then you're in luck. Companies usually recognize senior level developers can migrate to a related technology stack without too much of a loss, and the skills of being a senior developer are more soft-skills than particular technical areas. Recruiters generally won't know how to sell you in this regard, but with a bit of networking, you should be able to find you a bridge position into your new technology stack. You are going to be expected to hit the ground running, which will make the first few months of that job really exciting, but it should be entirely possible. A good place to look is in consulting companies, like my own Webonise Lab. Consulting companies will often hire experienced people to become generalists with broad skill sets, and will often take a specialist and give them an opportunity to train up through the company's open source projects and the like.