4 ms·

This email was a bit harsh. The first poster was a bit clueless but I'm sure it would have been possible to correct all the misconceptions without being rude. A

by exDM69 11y ago

This email was a bit harsh. The first poster was a bit clueless but I'm sure it would have been possible to correct all the misconceptions without being rude. And I'm a bit surprised to see a high profile maintainer bother to reply to such a misguided post anyway. Perhaps being a maintainer of a significant infrastructure project like an OS kernel wears on a person and builds a bit of a short-fuse temper :)

atmosx 11y ago
That's just Theo being himself (and the OpenBSD community by extension) alienating yet another user. A reason IMHO that OpenBSD has never reached the level of notoriety of FreeBSD is Theo's childish behaviour. I can understand a 20-something insulting someone like that, but not Theo. ps. I didn't quite understand the Linus reference, but anyway.
- pyvpx 11y ago
  the OpenBSD community gladly alienates those types of users. for "us" (I speak only for myself as a decade+ user and supporter), it's a qualitative game, not quantitative.
- cypher543 11y ago
  Then please explain Linux's extreme level of notoriety despite Linus Torvalds' equally combative attitude.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    GPL + Linus rants are funnier to read.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Linus' rants are usually (if ever?) not targeted at newcomers, but at people who know him well (and vice-versa).
    - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
      Different project structure, I think. You'll likely get told off by subsystem maintainers or even kernel janitors before that. If it gets to Linus, it must have been something unnerving. This can be interpreted both ways, however. Where Linus will be more elusive, Theo will have no qualms with just barging in and telling you to read the source code, ivory tower be damned. Almost as if he sort of respects even newbies enough to slap some quick advice to their face. A funny example is here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/212565 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/212565
- gonzo 11y ago
  > A reason IMHO that OpenBSD has never reached the level of notoriety of FreeBSD is Theo's childish behaviour. A minor reason, perhaps. There are other, more serious concerns.
  - pyvpx 11y ago
    such as?
stonogo 11y ago
This email was an entirely appropriate response to one of the most commonly-seen selfish and rude mailing list posts in software development. "Hi guys, I know you've been working for years on this! I haven't really bothered to look at your code, or understand the principles of operation, but I have strong opinions about How Things Should Be Done and I'm here to tell you how to run your project." The reason Theo himself replies to this sort of thing, and in this sort of fashion, is to make it absolutely clear (both to this imbecile and anyone who seeks to emulate him) that the people who want this sort of thing are wrong and will be wasting their effort in asking for it.
- markbnj 11y ago
  I don't think an email like that is ever appropriate. It's immature and childish, regardless of how foolish the initial inquiry was. There are certainly people who can provoke that kind of reaction, but since I don't know any backstory I have to go on what I read at the link. Here's an interesting truth: as your software achieves greater levels of use and success you come into contact with more, not fewer, clueless people with strong opinions. You going to tell all of them they are idiots? I assume so. Think about the impression others get when they come upon stuff like this in the archive, before you go cheering on such behavior. I have nothing bad to say about OpenBSD or the people who run the project, but reading a reply like that makes me wince.
  - rakoo 11y ago
    > I assume so. Think about the impression others get when they come upon stuff like this in the archive I loved this mail, and it's actually making OpenBSD stand out as a human project, because it's not riddled with indecipherable political correctness. You can feel there are people involved, that they didn't copy-pasted a template but actually thought out their words, you can feel the involvement of the people. On the other end of the spectrum a smiley would also make the project more human, closer to the people. This mail also serves as a warning to future people who will want to engage a similar path of "I don't know anything, but I think things should be done This Way" to actually think about it. A net advantage. Yes, the mail is harsh; that doesn't mean countrygeek should have a problem with it. The latter can (and should) absolutely go back to the research part, try to understand what he asks for, and then come back with a plan. That is what is really asked from the kind of people in the same position.
pyvpx 11y ago
I think the email that was sent was incredibly rude. This person clearly spent considerable time writing it, and yet it shows from start to finish they didn't bother to read, research, or even understand the current state of OpenBSD. Why should fools be suffered? OpenBSD developers have an OS to develop.

by exDM69 11y ago

atmosx 11y ago

That's just Theo being himself (and the OpenBSD community by extension) alienating yet another user. A reason IMHO that OpenBSD has never reached the level of notoriety of FreeBSD is Theo's childish behaviour. I can understand a 20-something insulting someone like that, but not Theo. ps. I didn't quite understand the Linus reference, but anyway.

pyvpx 11y ago
the OpenBSD community gladly alienates those types of users. for "us" (I speak only for myself as a decade+ user and supporter), it's a qualitative game, not quantitative.
cypher543 11y ago
Then please explain Linux's extreme level of notoriety despite Linus Torvalds' equally combative attitude.
- atmosx 11y ago
  GPL + Linus rants are funnier to read.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 11y ago
  Linus' rants are usually (if ever?) not targeted at newcomers, but at people who know him well (and vice-versa).
  - vezzy-fnord 11y ago
    Different project structure, I think. You'll likely get told off by subsystem maintainers or even kernel janitors before that. If it gets to Linus, it must have been something unnerving. This can be interpreted both ways, however. Where Linus will be more elusive, Theo will have no qualms with just barging in and telling you to read the source code, ivory tower be damned. Almost as if he sort of respects even newbies enough to slap some quick advice to their face. A funny example is here: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/212565 http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.misc/212565
gonzo 11y ago
> A reason IMHO that OpenBSD has never reached the level of notoriety of FreeBSD is Theo's childish behaviour. A minor reason, perhaps. There are other, more serious concerns.
- pyvpx 11y ago
  such as?

stonogo 11y ago

This email was an entirely appropriate response to one of the most commonly-seen selfish and rude mailing list posts in software development. "Hi guys, I know you've been working for years on this! I haven't really bothered to look at your code, or understand the principles of operation, but I have strong opinions about How Things Should Be Done and I'm here to tell you how to run your project." The reason Theo himself replies to this sort of thing, and in this sort of fashion, is to make it absolutely clear (both to this imbecile and anyone who seeks to emulate him) that the people who want this sort of thing are wrong and will be wasting their effort in asking for it.

markbnj 11y ago
I don't think an email like that is ever appropriate. It's immature and childish, regardless of how foolish the initial inquiry was. There are certainly people who can provoke that kind of reaction, but since I don't know any backstory I have to go on what I read at the link. Here's an interesting truth: as your software achieves greater levels of use and success you come into contact with more, not fewer, clueless people with strong opinions. You going to tell all of them they are idiots? I assume so. Think about the impression others get when they come upon stuff like this in the archive, before you go cheering on such behavior. I have nothing bad to say about OpenBSD or the people who run the project, but reading a reply like that makes me wince.
- rakoo 11y ago
  > I assume so. Think about the impression others get when they come upon stuff like this in the archive I loved this mail, and it's actually making OpenBSD stand out as a human project, because it's not riddled with indecipherable political correctness. You can feel there are people involved, that they didn't copy-pasted a template but actually thought out their words, you can feel the involvement of the people. On the other end of the spectrum a smiley would also make the project more human, closer to the people. This mail also serves as a warning to future people who will want to engage a similar path of "I don't know anything, but I think things should be done This Way" to actually think about it. A net advantage. Yes, the mail is harsh; that doesn't mean countrygeek should have a problem with it. The latter can (and should) absolutely go back to the research part, try to understand what he asks for, and then come back with a plan. That is what is really asked from the kind of people in the same position.

pyvpx 11y ago

I think the email that was sent was incredibly rude. This person clearly spent considerable time writing it, and yet it shows from start to finish they didn't bother to read, research, or even understand the current state of OpenBSD. Why should fools be suffered? OpenBSD developers have an OS to develop.