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>Let's just be fair and teach the next generations that our countries have been hijacked by corps+lobbyists, and that democracy is just a word used to make peop

>Let's just be fair and teach the next generations that our countries have been hijacked by corps+lobbyists, and that democracy is just a word used to make people accept their totalitarian power. You can fight them, you know.

enlightenedfool 11y ago
Inherent to democracy is the fact that the fighting "you" is minority and it keeps shrinking. Minority loses. But all good. Hopefully in a few centuries humanity will see bloody revolutions
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  There are fewer lobbyists than people. They rely upon the masses being divided and unwilling to recognize their own power.
DyslexicAtheist 11y ago
I have been wondering why all this madness hasn't resulted in more violent uprisings by ideologically radicalised groups or individuals. History in Europe has seen lesser triggers to call for (or act out) the expulsion of similar individuals like Karel de Gucht. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction If anything, the high unemployment in the EU over the past decade would have been a fertile breeding ground for such ideas. I'd say we're doing pretty well so far as a society by not engaging in more drastic measures given how much our rights are trampled on.
- crdoconnor 11y ago
  The far right and the far left are both growing in Europe. We aren't as violent as we used to be in the 1970s-80s (violent crime has dropped precipitously, for instance). Perhaps because we don't use leaded petrol any more.
  - lumberjack 11y ago
    >The far right and the far left are both growing in Europe. The far-right consists of anti-immigration people. That's not far-right. That was a normal centre-right opinion just a few decades ago. It's definitely not Fascism despite the implication. The far-left consists of people wanting to protect their government pension funds, green activists and people who do not like meddling by the likes of the IMF and WB. That's not far-left either. They definitely aren't communists. It's ridiculous how the media portrays these mostly sane political opinions as extremes held only by extremists.
    - anon1385 11y ago
      Jobbik[1] are now the third biggest party in Hungary. Their candidates are openly anti-semitic[2]. They want to return Hungary's borders to those of the pre-WWI Kingdom of Hungary. They put up statues to military commanders who were allies of Hitler. It would be a big mistake to call Jobbik just an anti-immigration movement. I agree that there are very few far left parties in Europe with any number of elected politicians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik [2] >In a newsletter published by a group calling itself "The trade union of Hungarian police officers prepared for action", the following was allegedly printed: "Given our current situation, anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews." The editor of the union, Judit Szima, was a Jobbik candidate in the upcoming election for the European Union parliament. Haaretz alleged Szima "didn't see anything wrong with the content of the article."
    - qubex 11y ago
      I upvoted you because of the interesting historical context, but I'm not sure it is sensible to imply that anti-immigration stances are not reprehensible.
      - task_queue 11y ago
        They may be reprehensible, but they aren't your hard line Fascists either.
- adventured 11y ago
  The reason you're not seeing that kind of revolution, is the modern central bank system in place enables the use of fiat to placate the population for a dramatically longer amount of time than was possible in eg 1920 or 1940. The EU is doing that right now, debasing the Euro to reduce the overall massive debt load and fake growth to placate the population and pretend to show things improving. Being able to abuse the currency makes it easy to continue to meet social obligations, but in actuality they're defaulting on those obligations through currency devaluation (ie the net result being citizens of the EU will suffer a lower standard of living, while most people won't realize what's happening until years later). If Japan couldn't abuse the Yen to fill the huge hole in their budget that their debt is causing, what would happen to their government? It would have already collapsed, unable to pay its bills. It's only the fiat system that enables them to continue. Japanese savers used to pay for the debt accumulation, then their savings rate collapsed; so now the Japanese government is taking wealth from their citizens via currency devaluation instead to keep covering the debt costs.
  - qubex 11y ago
    Central banks' reserved ("high power money") is only a tiny proportion of monetary supply (endogenous money).
- task_queue 11y ago
  Lack of solidarity, co-opted fronts, infiltration and neutralization of non co-opted organizations by economic interests and easy fractures among the economic class based on ethnicity/religion/arbitrary differences have historically been great ways at keeping a population from gaining a consciousness about their situation as a whole.
  - cies 11y ago
    Wise words. I second every bit of what you just caused my browser to render on screen.
  - notahacker 11y ago
    As has the historic tendency for the average citizen in countries run by plutocrats to enjoy substantially better standards of living, as well as a good deal more peace, than countries run by "class conscious" revolutionaries...
    - task_queue 11y ago
      You're railing against a point I didn't make. You can have a "class consciousness" without pulling out the hyperbole and Stalin card. This consciousness is what afforded us civil rights, granted us a safe work place, an eight hour work day, labor rights and bought us social programs that keep people from dying in the streets. Somehow these "class conscious" revolutionaries didn't let society devolve into chaos. It's this consciousness that we need to remind ourselves and those with power of our worth. Otherwise, we'll continue to get fucked over. No one will offer to make us concessions that we never had the power to ask for. The majority of the third world and anyone who wasn't born into the right religion/race/family in the first world would like to have a word with your first point, though. I guess we shouldn't realize nor negotiate from our position in society since being run by plutocrats isn't so bad because you say so. Good plutocrats try to make sure their population has "just enough" that they don't rally in the streets with guns. Relying on the goodwill of these people is an absurd expectation.
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      >As has the historic tendency for the average citizen in countries run by plutocrats to enjoy substantially better standards of living This isn't true at all.

enlightenedfool 11y ago

Inherent to democracy is the fact that the fighting "you" is minority and it keeps shrinking. Minority loses. But all good. Hopefully in a few centuries humanity will see bloody revolutions

crdoconnor 11y ago
There are fewer lobbyists than people. They rely upon the masses being divided and unwilling to recognize their own power.

DyslexicAtheist 11y ago

I have been wondering why all this madness hasn't resulted in more violent uprisings by ideologically radicalised groups or individuals. History in Europe has seen lesser triggers to call for (or act out) the expulsion of similar individuals like Karel de Gucht. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction If anything, the high unemployment in the EU over the past decade would have been a fertile breeding ground for such ideas. I'd say we're doing pretty well so far as a society by not engaging in more drastic measures given how much our rights are trampled on.

crdoconnor 11y ago
The far right and the far left are both growing in Europe. We aren't as violent as we used to be in the 1970s-80s (violent crime has dropped precipitously, for instance). Perhaps because we don't use leaded petrol any more.
- lumberjack 11y ago
  >The far right and the far left are both growing in Europe. The far-right consists of anti-immigration people. That's not far-right. That was a normal centre-right opinion just a few decades ago. It's definitely not Fascism despite the implication. The far-left consists of people wanting to protect their government pension funds, green activists and people who do not like meddling by the likes of the IMF and WB. That's not far-left either. They definitely aren't communists. It's ridiculous how the media portrays these mostly sane political opinions as extremes held only by extremists.
  - anon1385 11y ago
    Jobbik[1] are now the third biggest party in Hungary. Their candidates are openly anti-semitic[2]. They want to return Hungary's borders to those of the pre-WWI Kingdom of Hungary. They put up statues to military commanders who were allies of Hitler. It would be a big mistake to call Jobbik just an anti-immigration movement. I agree that there are very few far left parties in Europe with any number of elected politicians. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik [2] >In a newsletter published by a group calling itself "The trade union of Hungarian police officers prepared for action", the following was allegedly printed: "Given our current situation, anti-Semitism is not just our right, but it is the duty of every Hungarian homeland lover, and we must prepare for armed battle against the Jews." The editor of the union, Judit Szima, was a Jobbik candidate in the upcoming election for the European Union parliament. Haaretz alleged Szima "didn't see anything wrong with the content of the article."
  - qubex 11y ago
    I upvoted you because of the interesting historical context, but I'm not sure it is sensible to imply that anti-immigration stances are not reprehensible.
    - task_queue 11y ago
      They may be reprehensible, but they aren't your hard line Fascists either.
adventured 11y ago
The reason you're not seeing that kind of revolution, is the modern central bank system in place enables the use of fiat to placate the population for a dramatically longer amount of time than was possible in eg 1920 or 1940. The EU is doing that right now, debasing the Euro to reduce the overall massive debt load and fake growth to placate the population and pretend to show things improving. Being able to abuse the currency makes it easy to continue to meet social obligations, but in actuality they're defaulting on those obligations through currency devaluation (ie the net result being citizens of the EU will suffer a lower standard of living, while most people won't realize what's happening until years later). If Japan couldn't abuse the Yen to fill the huge hole in their budget that their debt is causing, what would happen to their government? It would have already collapsed, unable to pay its bills. It's only the fiat system that enables them to continue. Japanese savers used to pay for the debt accumulation, then their savings rate collapsed; so now the Japanese government is taking wealth from their citizens via currency devaluation instead to keep covering the debt costs.
- qubex 11y ago
  Central banks' reserved ("high power money") is only a tiny proportion of monetary supply (endogenous money).
task_queue 11y ago
Lack of solidarity, co-opted fronts, infiltration and neutralization of non co-opted organizations by economic interests and easy fractures among the economic class based on ethnicity/religion/arbitrary differences have historically been great ways at keeping a population from gaining a consciousness about their situation as a whole.
- cies 11y ago
  Wise words. I second every bit of what you just caused my browser to render on screen.
- notahacker 11y ago
  As has the historic tendency for the average citizen in countries run by plutocrats to enjoy substantially better standards of living, as well as a good deal more peace, than countries run by "class conscious" revolutionaries...
  - task_queue 11y ago
    You're railing against a point I didn't make. You can have a "class consciousness" without pulling out the hyperbole and Stalin card. This consciousness is what afforded us civil rights, granted us a safe work place, an eight hour work day, labor rights and bought us social programs that keep people from dying in the streets. Somehow these "class conscious" revolutionaries didn't let society devolve into chaos. It's this consciousness that we need to remind ourselves and those with power of our worth. Otherwise, we'll continue to get fucked over. No one will offer to make us concessions that we never had the power to ask for. The majority of the third world and anyone who wasn't born into the right religion/race/family in the first world would like to have a word with your first point, though. I guess we shouldn't realize nor negotiate from our position in society since being run by plutocrats isn't so bad because you say so. Good plutocrats try to make sure their population has "just enough" that they don't rally in the streets with guns. Relying on the goodwill of these people is an absurd expectation.
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    >As has the historic tendency for the average citizen in countries run by plutocrats to enjoy substantially better standards of living This isn't true at all.