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Pick 10 people at random. "Do you want everything you do and say to be kept in a permanent record to be used by the current and any future government against y

by harry8 11y ago

Pick 10 people at random. "Do you want everything you do and say to be kept in a permanent record to be used by the current and any future government against you at their discretion." See if you can get even 1 who says yes, or "that's ok with me" May not say "no" loudly enough to be working yet. Don't mistake that for yes.

ekianjo 11y ago
Your question would never make it into any actual survey because it's so heavily biased the way you are asking it.
- kirsebaer 11y ago
  How is it biased? This is the issue we are talking about.
  - ekianjo 11y ago
    It's biased if you force the answer on one side vs another.
    - harry8 11y ago
      If you don't mention that you have to trust all possible future governments, public servants and have absolute faith in their perfect competence your poll is shockingly biased because that is the actual thing we're holding opinions on. And nobody I know does have that level of trust and I'll lay dollars to donuts you don't either.
  - danso 11y ago
    - "Do you support creating a state-sanctioned group that can detain or even kill you and your family at their discretion before you've been tried by a jury of your peers?" - "Do you support local police?"
    - harry8 11y ago
      do you support the local police? Yes. Do you support the local police having tactical nuclear weapons? Yeah it's about that simple. Maybe you need to explain what a nuclear weapon is to someone who hasn't heard of them - and that's about where we're at. You can support the local police all you like and most people do and they still don't want total surveillance. This is not a how to massage "opinion polls" discussion like it's news to everyone as it was when we were second year of highschool or whenever that was. Lay out the pros of total surveillance, lay out the consequences. Do it as impartially and arbitrarily as you like and you'll get a wonderful unity of opinion about it.
- harry8 11y ago
  It's not a fing gallop poll to massage toward some political end. It's what I suggest you* ask people because it's the goddamn consequence of total surveillance. Do you doubt that it is? Yeah and nobody wants it. You're not just trusting this generation of police and this government public servants and elected but you are trusting all possible future governments, all possible future police, all possible future public servants who get the keys to it. And not just trusting them to be good people but trusting them in that they are awesomely competent and that they keep all that information completely secure. The opinion is whether you have that level of trust or not. I don't know anyone who does. Not one. But i respect that someone may well hold that opinion and that's where opinion ENTERS this. Prime them with all the "Think of the childeren war on terror" you like just as long as you make that FACT clear that this is the trust they have to have. And here's the thing, you can Still support the authorities without supporting such things which most people actually do when they understand and work out those consequences. It's the same as: "I support the FBI catching criminals but they probably shouldn't have a medieval torture dungeon and their own meth labs and distribution network." You'd be hard pressed to find 1 person in 10 who thinks they should have a medieval torture dungeon and that be a legal thing. You'd be hard pressed to find 1 in 10 in the FBI who thought so or at least you'd fucking hope that's the case otherwise they need to start the firing and replacing them with humans beings. But tech savvy you can explain further to any random people that when everything is recorded it becomes the motherlode for anyone who is going to gain by blackmailing. That data is now a target for organised crime, hostile foreign powers, and everyone you hate and wishes you harm. If they get it, eg because someone who has access to that info but also has a gambling problem, or their big brother likes little boys or whatever is their weakness given they're all obviously good, proper and righteous americans, those enemies of america will use the information and that probably won't be a positive thing for freedom, democracy, america or even for any random three letter agency. It's not a fucking popularity poll commissioned by a news service pushing an agenda. You ask 10 people if they want everything they say and do on a permanent record to be accessed by all current and all future possible governments forever or whether that is a step too far and watch the unity across the political and socio-economic spectrum. Phrase it like that because it's ACCURATE. If you think it's inaccurate - make that case. And fuck anyone who doesn't want me to mention the downvotes too. No really, fuck them. Downvotes are for opinions you want hidden because they are off-colour and lack legitimacy in a civilized discussion.

by harry8 11y ago

ekianjo 11y ago

Your question would never make it into any actual survey because it's so heavily biased the way you are asking it.

kirsebaer 11y ago
How is it biased? This is the issue we are talking about.
- ekianjo 11y ago
  It's biased if you force the answer on one side vs another.
  - harry8 11y ago
    If you don't mention that you have to trust all possible future governments, public servants and have absolute faith in their perfect competence your poll is shockingly biased because that is the actual thing we're holding opinions on. And nobody I know does have that level of trust and I'll lay dollars to donuts you don't either.
- danso 11y ago
  - "Do you support creating a state-sanctioned group that can detain or even kill you and your family at their discretion before you've been tried by a jury of your peers?" - "Do you support local police?"
  - harry8 11y ago
    do you support the local police? Yes. Do you support the local police having tactical nuclear weapons? Yeah it's about that simple. Maybe you need to explain what a nuclear weapon is to someone who hasn't heard of them - and that's about where we're at. You can support the local police all you like and most people do and they still don't want total surveillance. This is not a how to massage "opinion polls" discussion like it's news to everyone as it was when we were second year of highschool or whenever that was. Lay out the pros of total surveillance, lay out the consequences. Do it as impartially and arbitrarily as you like and you'll get a wonderful unity of opinion about it.
harry8 11y ago
It's not a fing gallop poll to massage toward some political end. It's what I suggest you* ask people because it's the goddamn consequence of total surveillance. Do you doubt that it is? Yeah and nobody wants it. You're not just trusting this generation of police and this government public servants and elected but you are trusting all possible future governments, all possible future police, all possible future public servants who get the keys to it. And not just trusting them to be good people but trusting them in that they are awesomely competent and that they keep all that information completely secure. The opinion is whether you have that level of trust or not. I don't know anyone who does. Not one. But i respect that someone may well hold that opinion and that's where opinion ENTERS this. Prime them with all the "Think of the childeren war on terror" you like just as long as you make that FACT clear that this is the trust they have to have. And here's the thing, you can Still support the authorities without supporting such things which most people actually do when they understand and work out those consequences. It's the same as: "I support the FBI catching criminals but they probably shouldn't have a medieval torture dungeon and their own meth labs and distribution network." You'd be hard pressed to find 1 person in 10 who thinks they should have a medieval torture dungeon and that be a legal thing. You'd be hard pressed to find 1 in 10 in the FBI who thought so or at least you'd fucking hope that's the case otherwise they need to start the firing and replacing them with humans beings. But tech savvy you can explain further to any random people that when everything is recorded it becomes the motherlode for anyone who is going to gain by blackmailing. That data is now a target for organised crime, hostile foreign powers, and everyone you hate and wishes you harm. If they get it, eg because someone who has access to that info but also has a gambling problem, or their big brother likes little boys or whatever is their weakness given they're all obviously good, proper and righteous americans, those enemies of america will use the information and that probably won't be a positive thing for freedom, democracy, america or even for any random three letter agency. It's not a fucking popularity poll commissioned by a news service pushing an agenda. You ask 10 people if they want everything they say and do on a permanent record to be accessed by all current and all future possible governments forever or whether that is a step too far and watch the unity across the political and socio-economic spectrum. Phrase it like that because it's ACCURATE. If you think it's inaccurate - make that case. And fuck anyone who doesn't want me to mention the downvotes too. No really, fuck them. Downvotes are for opinions you want hidden because they are off-colour and lack legitimacy in a civilized discussion.