6 ms·

Fully dressed and preserved 350-year-old corpse of French noblewoman found

76 points by diodorus 11y ago

abakker 11y ago
Though the article does say that the body will be re buried, it does not specify that it will be in the same place. Are we to understand that they are just moving the bodies out of the way to build a convention center? Real question: what will we learn from examining this body from 300 years ago? My understanding is that we have plenty of artifacts and knowledge left from that time period. Are we primarily interested in her cause of death? her diet?
- diodorus 11y ago
  Bioarcheaologists have been finding out all sorts of new stuff recently using forensic tools to analyze human remains. One of my favorite blogs along these lines is Kristina Killgrove's "Powered by Osteons" which discusses her research into lead levels in the bones of ancient Romans, among other interesting things: http://www.poweredbyosteons.org http://www.poweredbyosteons.org From a more specifically historical point of view, it's true that we know quite a lot about 17th century material culture (especially of France) due to probate records from wills, and the survival of many pieces in museums, etc. But it's still interesting to see the divergence between textual records of burials and belongings and how they actually played out in practice, especially because most museum pieces are completely decontextualized from the original context (i.e., we might have some cork-soled shoes that survive in other collections, but these ones are still on the feet of the wearer).
  - abakker 11y ago
    Thanks for that reply!
cicero 11y ago
I read this article in order to compare this case with those of Catholic and Orthodox saints who are incorrupt. Sure enough, this woman lived her final years in a convent. For some reason that I've never heard explained, living a holy life (according to Catholic and Orthodox Christian measures) sometimes has the effect of retarding the process of decay after death. I used to suspect the stories of incorruptible saints as being frauds perpetrated to advance the agenda of the Catholic Church, but as I have learned more, it has happened too many times in too many different ways for me to think that anymore. In the case of this French noblewoman, no one is trying to advance the cause of her canonization. She was found accidentally, seemingly by someone who has no interest in Catholic saints.
- cariaso 11y ago
  I see no basis for a miraculous explanation. Convents and holy sites are much more likely to remain undisturbed. In many other western european sites, every other inch of land has been farmed continuously for centuries, making it unlikely to find an undisturbed body. This wealthy woman was in a lead coffin at a convent, and was probably much better protected from the elements than 99.99% of her contemporaries.
  - cicero 11y ago
    I didn't claim a miraculous explanation; I only said I no longer think these cases are faked. I think "incorruptibles" are a fascinating phenomenon that I can't explain. I believe in miracles, and I think some incorruptibles might be miracles, but I don't really know. There might be other ways that the lifestyle we tend to call "holy" does something to retard decomposition. However, I don't think your explanation is sufficient because decay usually begins immediately upon death due to the presence of organisms already in the body before death. Sealing the coffin would not prevent such decomposition.
- JamisonM 11y ago
  If you dry up before you can really get rotting you will be pretty well preserved. The bottom line of that being that if your corpse is well-prepared before burial and your casket happens to be either well-sealed or otherwise escape water penetration for the period you are buried you will be in pretty good shape 300 years on. There are a lot of ways a dead body can stay dry and a lot of dead bodies out there to discover.
  - userbinator 11y ago
    Another example of that would be the mummies in Egypt that lasted >4k years in a hot, dry place.
  - fencepost 11y ago
    There are also some other conditions that can result in surprising preservation, such as alkaline conditions leading to saponification (basically turning body fat into a soap-like substance).
guardiangod 11y ago
So I look at the photos and yup, still hairy. (This is a joke.)
forscha 11y ago
From the title, I expected a surprise in how the body was found, not in a tomb.

76 points by diodorus 11y ago

Though the article does say that the body will be re buried, it does not specify that it will be in the same place. Are we to understand that they are just moving the bodies out of the way to build a convention center? Real question: what will we learn from examining this body from 300 years ago? My understanding is that we have plenty of artifacts and knowledge left from that time period. Are we primarily interested in her cause of death? her diet?

diodorus 11y ago
Bioarcheaologists have been finding out all sorts of new stuff recently using forensic tools to analyze human remains. One of my favorite blogs along these lines is Kristina Killgrove's "Powered by Osteons" which discusses her research into lead levels in the bones of ancient Romans, among other interesting things: http://www.poweredbyosteons.org http://www.poweredbyosteons.org From a more specifically historical point of view, it's true that we know quite a lot about 17th century material culture (especially of France) due to probate records from wills, and the survival of many pieces in museums, etc. But it's still interesting to see the divergence between textual records of burials and belongings and how they actually played out in practice, especially because most museum pieces are completely decontextualized from the original context (i.e., we might have some cork-soled shoes that survive in other collections, but these ones are still on the feet of the wearer).
- abakker 11y ago
  Thanks for that reply!

cicero 11y ago

I read this article in order to compare this case with those of Catholic and Orthodox saints who are incorrupt. Sure enough, this woman lived her final years in a convent. For some reason that I've never heard explained, living a holy life (according to Catholic and Orthodox Christian measures) sometimes has the effect of retarding the process of decay after death. I used to suspect the stories of incorruptible saints as being frauds perpetrated to advance the agenda of the Catholic Church, but as I have learned more, it has happened too many times in too many different ways for me to think that anymore. In the case of this French noblewoman, no one is trying to advance the cause of her canonization. She was found accidentally, seemingly by someone who has no interest in Catholic saints.

cariaso 11y ago
I see no basis for a miraculous explanation. Convents and holy sites are much more likely to remain undisturbed. In many other western european sites, every other inch of land has been farmed continuously for centuries, making it unlikely to find an undisturbed body. This wealthy woman was in a lead coffin at a convent, and was probably much better protected from the elements than 99.99% of her contemporaries.
- cicero 11y ago
  I didn't claim a miraculous explanation; I only said I no longer think these cases are faked. I think "incorruptibles" are a fascinating phenomenon that I can't explain. I believe in miracles, and I think some incorruptibles might be miracles, but I don't really know. There might be other ways that the lifestyle we tend to call "holy" does something to retard decomposition. However, I don't think your explanation is sufficient because decay usually begins immediately upon death due to the presence of organisms already in the body before death. Sealing the coffin would not prevent such decomposition.
JamisonM 11y ago
If you dry up before you can really get rotting you will be pretty well preserved. The bottom line of that being that if your corpse is well-prepared before burial and your casket happens to be either well-sealed or otherwise escape water penetration for the period you are buried you will be in pretty good shape 300 years on. There are a lot of ways a dead body can stay dry and a lot of dead bodies out there to discover.
- userbinator 11y ago
  Another example of that would be the mummies in Egypt that lasted >4k years in a hot, dry place.
- fencepost 11y ago
  There are also some other conditions that can result in surprising preservation, such as alkaline conditions leading to saponification (basically turning body fat into a soap-like substance).

guardiangod 11y ago

So I look at the photos and yup, still hairy. (This is a joke.)

forscha 11y ago

From the title, I expected a surprise in how the body was found, not in a tomb.