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Senate Approves Bill to Rein in N.S.A. Surveillance
- josh2600 11y agoThe title of this article would suggest that there is a delta between where we are now and where we are after the bill. Is there a material difference in the way NSA will behave after the bill? Are surveillance powers any weaker if they can still query CDRs from operators? Isn't this, on some level, a subsidy to ATT, Verizon, T-Mobile and Sprint?
- jessaustin 11y agoAt least now we get to see the invoice. Don't imagine that Room 641A was set up for free.
- namecast 11y agoI actually wouldn't be surprised if it were. "Hey $ATT_EXECUTIVE - see what happened to [Qwest's CEO] Joe Nacchio? Good. Now go splice me some fiber or you'll be joining him."
- jessaustin 11y agoI would be surprised. Both Ma Bell and the clandestine service are always looking for ways to move more money in more directions. A typical scenario: from NSA to some secret shell company, from there to ATT for the project, from there to a favored systems integrator to run the project, from there to the agent-in-charge's nephew for unspecified services, from there back to the shell company, etc.
- BinaryIdiot 11y agoThe penalty would probably be worse if a commercial company did work for free for the government. It's a big no-no. You can't even give government employees things like lunch during a working lunch meeting unless it's a low enough amount and they provide some way for the govies to optionally pay.
- nsnick 11y agoWell before this bill (yesturday) bulk collection of phone data was illegal. Now it is legal.
- agorabinary 11y agoA weak bill that does little or nothing to properly stymie the torrent of civil liberties intrusions. Much stronger legislation is needed. At least Rand Paul's efforts produced a symbolic if temporary rebuke of Patriot Act powers.
- davidw 11y ago> Much stronger legislation is needed. Make sure you let your legislators know this via a phone call or written (not email) comunication. Might not change things overnight, but it's pretty easy to do.
- sandstrom 11y agoSome would argue it won't make much of a difference what the public thinks: http://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf http://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fil...
- davidw 11y agoIf you don't do anything, it will certainly not make a difference.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoI went in person to my local reps office. demandprogress.org had a letter I could print to provide [I didn't use their letter; I provided my own]
- infamouscow 11y agoThe USA Freedom Act that passed the House and Senate extends the Patriot Act until December 31, 2017. This article is complete horseshit.
- istvan__ 11y agoNot a surprise, given it is New York Times...
- javert 11y agoJust to back this up, the NYT has been incredibly biased over and over and over and should not be treated as a reliable source of news.
- SuperKlaus 11y agoNot sure why this gets downvoted - the NYT has a terrible track record reporting about issues like this so it's a fair point.
- fweespeech 11y agoThis is hilarious in a gallows humor kind of way. They get articles trumpeting that they "did away" with Section 215, they get articles claiming they "reigned in" Surveillance by passing a new bill. The reality is nothing changed for all this theater, its just been dressed up in different clothes to put the bad publicity behind them.
- stevewepay 11y agoI honestly can't tell from the article if this is a good thing or a bad thing.
- glitchdout 11y agoIt's a bad thing. Also, you shouldn't trust the Times on issues like this. And I wonder why, of all the available articles, the Times was the one chosen to be submitted here on HN. Anyway, just read ArsTechnica reporting: * Let the snooping resume: Senate revives Patriot Act surveillance measures http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/let-the-snooping-resume-senate-revives-patriot-surveillance-measures/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/let-the-snooping-... * How the end of Patriot Act provisions changes NSA surveillance http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/how-the-end-of-patriot-act-provisions-changes-nsa-surveillance/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/how-the-end-of-pa...
- randomname2 11y agoSuch doublespeak in the title of this article.
- jgrowl 11y agoFitting for this bill named FREEDOM.
- colinbartlett 11y agoI have read so many articles over the past week about various bills and efforts to further them or block them and I have no idea what's going on at this point. I still read this and do not understand. > the Senate voted on Tuesday to curtail the federal government’s sweeping surveillance > the passage... will lead to the reinstatement of government surveillance efforts Did we stop the surveillance? Did we continue it? Is this really going to do anything at all to change the culture of mass collection? Who is counting this as a win? Who is against this and who is for this?
- headShrinker 11y agoThe way I understand it, the patriot act superseded existing spy legislation. While the the patriot act was not written well, it what better than what it replaced. Now instead of further shaping of the patriot act, we have a more draconian preexisting law that allows the government to spy.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- jdp23 11y agoGreat questions. USA Freedom has some reforms, and shifts the collection to the telcos rather than the NSA. Then again it largely keeps the current regime in place (which makes it a win for the NSA), and it misses out on a lot of potential improvements. Some privacy and civil liberties organizations supported it; EFF and ACLU neither supported nor opposed it. Unfortunately, more aggressive reforms -- like the Surveillance State Repeal Act -- weren't on the table; and there was a lot of concern that the Senate would further weaken it. So given the makeup of the House and Senate, passing the House version unmodified after a sunset was probably the best outcome. ACLU's Jameel Jaffer says "This is the most important surveillance reform bill since 1978, and its passage is an indication that Americans are no longer willing to give the intelligence agencies a blank check." While the sunset doesn't actually have any long-term effect, IMHO it's still symbolically important: it meant that the usual tactics of "engineer a last-minute crisis" didn't work this time. And because of Rand Paul, it's actually going to be an issue in the GOP Presidential campaign -- which is huge. [Sanders voted against it as well, saying it was too weak.] So on the whole I'd say it's a win for reformers ... a small win, admittedly, and tinged with disappointment that even after Snowden we couldn't do better. Still, it's a long term battle. And frankly it's been a while since we've had even a small win.
- jakejake 11y ago"The passage of the measure, achieved after a vigorous debate on the Senate floor, will lead to the reinstatement of government surveillance efforts" What the heck does this mean? Should the title of the article read "Senate votes to keep the NSA doing almost exactly the same thing?"
- jdp23 11y agoThe Senate rejected all the amendments, and passed the same version of USA Freedom that the House did, so this round of legislative battles is over. Barring anything unexpected, the next fight is 2017 over FISA renewal. [All the amendments they voted on would have weakened the protections. Paul and Wyden weren't allowed to introduce their amendments to strengthen it.]
- dragonwriter 11y agoGiven that 215 had already expired, and (as I understand) that was the one thing in previously-existing authorities that USA FREEDOM Act restrained a bit (while expanding others), is it accurate to say that USA FREEDOM Act actually reins in anything? Or would it be more accurate to say it is a pure expansion of surveillance powers?
- bmelton 11y agoCompared to yesterday, it is an expansion of surveillance authority. Compared to May 30th, it is a slight contraction of surveillance authority.
- bcheung 11y agoThe USA Freedom Act? Based on the Patriot Act should I assume it is the exact opposite of freedom? From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Freedom_Act "According to supporters of the USA Freedom Act, the USA Freedom Act was meant to end the bulk collection of Americans' metadata by the NSA, end the secret laws created by the FISA court, and introduce a "Special Advocate" to represent public and privacy matters." "The USA Freedom Act is perceived as containing several concessions to pro-surveillance legislators meant to facilitate its passage, such as extending the Patriot Act powers until 2019." I'm so confused. Is this bill a good thing or a bad thing?
- blumkvist 11y ago>I'm so confused. Is this bill a good thing or a bad thing? I find it particularly amusing that you want somebody to make that judgement for you, while being obviously pro civil activism.
- ChrisClark 11y agoYou can be both pro civil activism and not a lawyer at the same time. It's not bad to ask someone to help you understand a legal document.
- blumkvist 11y agoNobody can explain you such matters. It's like asking someone to briefly explain Quantum Mechanics. You will never truly understand a word unless you learn everything you need to know first. This is especially true in law and politics because things can be ambiguous and often times people deliberately want to deceive you. If you are pro civil activism, take the time and effort and learn how to read documents. Otherwise you are just lying to yourself so you can feel warm and fuzzy.
- kej 11y agoAssuming you have typical HN leanings, this bill is a qualified good thing. It ends the NSA bulk metadata collection, but keeps less controversial things like roving wiretaps.
- Splendor 11y agoLink to the bill text: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113%3AH.R.3361%3A http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c113%3AH.R.3361%3A Section regarding bulk collection: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c113:4:./temp/~c113LpLijo:e34262 http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c113:4:./temp/~c113LpL...:
- cchip 11y ago"The Government shall compensate a person for reasonable expenses incurred for producing tangible things"... Great! Thirty pieces of silver for everyone!
- chris_wot 11y agoOh come on. That's not an issue by itself, it's perfectly reasonable under proper oversight to require that someone turn over material evidence. That's never been controversial.
- themeek 11y agoWell... the draconian overreach of the third party doctrine, including the in praxis requirement to backdoor services sold to the public, is and certainly has been controversial, as have tap and trace laws. In fact, the only reason the Section 215 even had a sunset clause was because the legislature was so uncertain about the legislation that they wanted to put in an escape clause.
- chris_wot 11y agoFair comment.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- efuquen 11y agoFor all those confused about this, this is a mild victory. Certainly better than the Patriot Act, but not as strong a piece of legislation as it could have been. EFF writes their opinion of it here: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/05/usa-freedom-act-passes-what-we-celebrate-what-we-mourn-and-where-we-go-here https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/05/usa-freedom-act-passes... "Technology users everywhere should celebrate, knowing that the NSA will be a little more hampered in its surveillance overreach, and both the NSA and the FISA court will be more transparent and accountable than it was before the USA Freedom Act. It’s no secret that we wanted more. ... Even so, we’re celebrating. We’re celebrating because, however small, this bill marks a day that some said could never happen—a day when the NSA saw its surveillance power reduced by Congress. And we’re hoping that this could be a turning point in the fight to rein in the NSA."
- infamouscow 11y agoThe USA Freedom Act extends the Patriot Act until December 31, 2017. It seems like nobody, not even the EFF, read the actual legislation.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- whoisthemachine 11y agoHeadline should be "Senate Approves Bill to Reinstate most of NSA Surveillance"
- datamingle 11y agoWe were literally more free yesterday than today. We should have just left the 'Patriot' Act to expire and replace it with nothing
- infamouscow 11y agoRead the last page of the USA Freedom Act, it extends the Patriot Act until December 31, 2017.
- mindslight 11y agoNytimes is as close to state-run media as there can be under our microkernel government. As to our brief respite from one small part of tyranny: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642843 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642843
- yellowapple 11y ago> microkernel government Hah. I wish. In reality, it's more of a modular monolith than a proper microkernel.
- mindslight 11y agoThe nominal government has ballooned in size, but the whole power structure is still a microkernel architecture. How many aspects of your daily life are determined by insurance companies and private rulemaking bodies? Nothing can get through congress unless it benefits some special interest, illustrating that most power is outside of USG itself, as it is held by capital. Even large scale policy is set by prominent universities that prevail through attrition by repeatedly broadcasting "the way it's going to be". None of these things are accountable to the voters, even if democracy actually worked.
- cchip 11y agoThanks Facebook, Google, Apple, Twitter, Microsoft, Yahoo and friends for being on the wrong side: https://www.reformgovernmentsurveillance.com/ https://www.reformgovernmentsurveillance.com/ From take action with Google: "Senator * said YES to USA Freedom. Say thank you and show your support." "Thank your Senator now for saying YES to the USA Freedom Act." Freedom Act (Patriot Act v 2.0.. Same author: Rep. Sensenbrenner) must be vetoed... Someone please start a change.org thing, or whatever. Freedom Act is going to require everyone to keep records for the NSA... Simple fix for the no funding problem... "No datacenter, no problem; we'll use yours" Do not sacrifice your privacy for security.
- yellowapple 11y ago> Do not sacrifice your privacy for security. Note that "security" is (or ought to be) in massive finger-quotes here. Bulk data collection like this is actually a liability in terms of data security, not an asset, due to being a large target for attack.
- lani0 11y agoif the senate approved, does it mean surveillance was actually good for the nation's security ?
- AdmiralAsshat 11y agoArs Technica's coverage of the same event carried a slightly different headline: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/let-the-snooping-resume-senate-revives-patriot-surveillance-measures/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/let-the-snooping-...
- Splendor 11y agoAccording to The Verge[0], Senator Wyden -- who I trust very much in these matters -- said the passage of this bill is "the most significant victory for Americans’ privacy rights in more than a decade." That gives me some hope that this bill represents actual change. [0]: http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8714651/senate-passes-usa-freedom-act-nsa http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8714651/senate-passes-usa-f...
- dataker 11y agoIs there any reason to assume it'd stop anyway? If it hadn't been approved, I doubt the real outcome would've been different.
- nsnick 11y agoThe headline should read, "Senate Approves Bill to continue NSA phone surveillance."
- ebel 11y agoso snowden can come home ?
- GizaDog 11y agoMaybe but the FBI is taking over the spying role! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_SURVEILLANCE_FLIGHTS?SITE=VACHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_SURVEILLANCE_F...
- themeek 11y agoThis isn't really right. The FBI does perform surveillance, but they aren't in charge of signals collection. The NSA is in charge of these capabilities - and also the protection of the Gov networks. The FBI also spies, but it is not taking over the NSA's spy role. They both spy. Neither is decreasing.
- GizaDog 11y agoMaybe but the FBI is taking over the spying role! http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_SURVEILLANCE_FLIGHTS?SITE=VACHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_FBI_SURVEILLANCE_F...
- kelvin0 11y agoIn other news NSA lawyers have changed the definition of 'domestic surveillance'. Seriously, that would be hilarious.
- conorgil145 11y agoA Center for Democracy and Technology (CDT) press release about the bill: https://cdt.org/press/victory-passage-of-usa-freedom-act-reins-in-nsa-surveillance/ https://cdt.org/press/victory-passage-of-usa-freedom-act-rei... which links to a great table explaining the difference between the house and senate bills: https://cdt.org/insight/comparison-of-house-senate-versions-of-the-usa-freedom-act/ https://cdt.org/insight/comparison-of-house-senate-versions-...
- geetee 11y agoHow long until there is a new fee on my phone bill to pay for the storage and retrieval cost of this?
- golemotron 11y agoI'm sure that when Snowden's revelations came out the first thing that happened is that the government created a new more hidden level that could not be touched by any retaliatory regulation. How could this happen? Does the legislation call out the NSA by name? If it does consider that maybe another agency is now doing it.
- pc2g4d 11y agoThoughts on next steps at the end of the article: "Senator Mike Lee, a Utah Republican, and Senator Leahy made it clear after passage that curtailing the phone sweeps might be only the beginning. The two are collaborating on legislation to undo a provision in the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 that allows the government to read the contents of email over six months old. House members and senators from both parties are already eyeing a section of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that they say has also been abused by the government. "But opponents of the law said they imagined further fights going forward for their positions, too. Senator Susan Collins, Republican of Maine, said she and others would continue to seek reforms and oversight. "'It’s not the end,' she said."