4 ms·

I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards compatibility. I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0

by FreakyT 11y ago

I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards compatibility. I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0 computer from 1999. Sure, it'll run slower, but it'll work, and even without an adapter! With Apple's previous various high-speed ports (Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Thunderbolt), they have no backwards compatibility -- from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck completely.

Roritharr 11y ago
The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it. Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be great, but that door has been shut now.
- FreakyT 11y ago
  Ah, I see your point. At the same time, though, there do exist some USB 3.0 peripherals that require of a lot of bandwidth (like docking stations), that, while theoretically backwards compatible, wouldn't actually work with a USB 1.0 port in practice due to bandwidth constraints.
- ZenoArrow 11y ago
  > Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. I don't get your point. The Type C connector will support USB 3.1, which AFAIK is backwards compatible with older versions of USB. The Type C connector will also support Thunderbolt 3 (and the datatypes that Thunderbolt supports, aside from perhaps DisplayPort 1.3). Support for the protocols is done at the chipset level. All Type C connectors in Intel computers will support everything that the Type C currently supports, as the support is built in to the Alpine Ridge chipset. Other device makers will support all the USB 3.1 stuff at a minimum out of the gate, and potentially support Thunderbolt down the road also. Where exactly is the backwards compatibility issue? Do you mean forward compatibility?
- tw04 11y ago
  Just so we're clear, you'd rather have to carry around 10 different dongles just so you can know, visually, what a port is capable of? I'm sorry - when I buy the laptop, I look at what the port can do, and I remember it. If I'm in a meeting and I have to use someone else's, I ask if they know. If they don't, I try it, and if it doesn't work, we move on. I can't come up with any scenario in which this is a bad thing, outside of sheer laziness or poor planning.
  - wilsynet 11y ago
    But he's OK that you can't tell USB v1 from USB v2 visually. Somehow he's able to discern or recall the date of manufacture but won't be able to remember that it's a Thunderbolt port.
    - DannoHung 11y ago
      They probably should come up with some way to simply mark things though, so you can easily tell by looking at what you're plugging in that everything is good.
      - yellowapple 11y ago
        Many USB 3.0 ports have blue inner connectors to indicate that they're 3.0 ports, and some USB ports will have yellow connectors instead to indicate a variety of things (from better charging rate to supplying power even when the host device is powered off). I think the logical extension of this would be resistor-style color code bands to indicate different sets of functionality (yellow for Thunderbolt, red for charging, etc.).
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jawngee 11y ago
from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck completely No you aren't: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/dp/B008RXYOKY http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/...
- mikeash 11y ago
  That only works in one direction. You can use it to connect FireWire devices to a computer with Thunderbolt, but you can't use it to connect Thunderbolt devices to a computer with FireWire. Contrast with USB. I can go out and buy a USB storage device brand new off the shelf in 2015, plug it into an iMac from 1998, and it will work. It will be slow but it will work out of the box.
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  - ssharp 11y ago
    I don't have a thunderbolt device yet, but I wouldn't expect the behavior you're talking about. Being able to connect my old firewire devices might be nice, but I wouldn't expect to be able to use new devices on an old port.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      There's no reason to expect it. But USB does it anyway, and it's really nice to know that I can buy USB 3 devices and use them with my USB 2 computers as long as I don't need top performance.
  - jawngee 11y ago
    He said he was "out of luck completely". He's not.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      That comment is entirely about using newer peripherals with older computers. He is.

by FreakyT 11y ago

Roritharr 11y ago

The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it. Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be great, but that door has been shut now.

FreakyT 11y ago
Ah, I see your point. At the same time, though, there do exist some USB 3.0 peripherals that require of a lot of bandwidth (like docking stations), that, while theoretically backwards compatible, wouldn't actually work with a USB 1.0 port in practice due to bandwidth constraints.
ZenoArrow 11y ago
> Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point. I don't get your point. The Type C connector will support USB 3.1, which AFAIK is backwards compatible with older versions of USB. The Type C connector will also support Thunderbolt 3 (and the datatypes that Thunderbolt supports, aside from perhaps DisplayPort 1.3). Support for the protocols is done at the chipset level. All Type C connectors in Intel computers will support everything that the Type C currently supports, as the support is built in to the Alpine Ridge chipset. Other device makers will support all the USB 3.1 stuff at a minimum out of the gate, and potentially support Thunderbolt down the road also. Where exactly is the backwards compatibility issue? Do you mean forward compatibility?
tw04 11y ago
Just so we're clear, you'd rather have to carry around 10 different dongles just so you can know, visually, what a port is capable of? I'm sorry - when I buy the laptop, I look at what the port can do, and I remember it. If I'm in a meeting and I have to use someone else's, I ask if they know. If they don't, I try it, and if it doesn't work, we move on. I can't come up with any scenario in which this is a bad thing, outside of sheer laziness or poor planning.
- wilsynet 11y ago
  But he's OK that you can't tell USB v1 from USB v2 visually. Somehow he's able to discern or recall the date of manufacture but won't be able to remember that it's a Thunderbolt port.
  - DannoHung 11y ago
    They probably should come up with some way to simply mark things though, so you can easily tell by looking at what you're plugging in that everything is good.
    - yellowapple 11y ago
      Many USB 3.0 ports have blue inner connectors to indicate that they're 3.0 ports, and some USB ports will have yellow connectors instead to indicate a variety of things (from better charging rate to supplying power even when the host device is powered off). I think the logical extension of this would be resistor-style color code bands to indicate different sets of functionality (yellow for Thunderbolt, red for charging, etc.).

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jawngee 11y ago

from FW 400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck completely No you aren't: http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/dp/B008RXYOKY http://www.amazon.com/Apple-Thunderbolt-to-FireWire-Adapter/...

mikeash 11y ago
That only works in one direction. You can use it to connect FireWire devices to a computer with Thunderbolt, but you can't use it to connect Thunderbolt devices to a computer with FireWire. Contrast with USB. I can go out and buy a USB storage device brand new off the shelf in 2015, plug it into an iMac from 1998, and it will work. It will be slow but it will work out of the box.
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- ssharp 11y ago
  I don't have a thunderbolt device yet, but I wouldn't expect the behavior you're talking about. Being able to connect my old firewire devices might be nice, but I wouldn't expect to be able to use new devices on an old port.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    There's no reason to expect it. But USB does it anyway, and it's really nice to know that I can buy USB 3 devices and use them with my USB 2 computers as long as I don't need top performance.
- jawngee 11y ago
  He said he was "out of luck completely". He's not.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    That comment is entirely about using newer peripherals with older computers. He is.