5 ms·

> It has never stopped a single red handed bomber in all these years. I doubt that is true, although I haven't seen any evidence either way. I guess it stops p

by blowski 11y ago

> It has never stopped a single red handed bomber in all these years. I doubt that is true, although I haven't seen any evidence either way. I guess it stops people indirectly, as any would-be terrorist has to be more creative, and in so doing probably alerts security authorities in other ways. We all hate airport security, but without hard facts, it's very difficult to work out what you would use instead of TSA-style security.

cwp 11y ago
Well, they don't have to be that creative, if 67 out of 70 attempts succeeded.
- daeken 11y ago
  We don't know what the attempts were, so we can't know if it requires real creativity and ingenuity or not.
  - beagle3 11y ago
    There were previous reports that included very detailed descriptions, e.g. [0] from 2008. Some will probably be published this year too. [0] http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/01/28/tsa.bombtest/ http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/01/28/tsa.bombtest/
- blowski 11y ago
  To get terrorists to be more creative, you have to convince them that the TSA would notice so it's not worth trying to walk through security with a kalashnikov in your hand luggage. However, I accept your point that given the cost and inconvenience, it would be great if the TSA actually did notice.
lokedhs 11y ago
One could, for example, take a look at other countries that does not have the same level of security theatre. I have no data obviously (this being the Internet and all) but I wouldn't be surprised to see that there is no measurable difference between countries that have a more sane approach to security and the ones that follow the US lead with the security theatre.
- mauricemir 11y ago
  Not all countries have the same risk profile
  - mattlutze 11y ago
    The US doesn't necessarily have the risk profile that it's made out to have.
    - mauricemir 11y ago
      Nor does it have the same risk profile as say Ireland or Iceland. Whether its over blown is a different debate and a much harder one to quantify.
  - tremon 11y ago
    what risk profile? The administration has never presented a credible risk profile to justify these intrusions, has it? The usual response is to keep repeating the same mantras to downplay the severity of these intrustions, not to substantiate (or worse, quantify) any of the perceived threats.
bigiain 11y ago
There are a couple of hundred countries on the world that manage to run airports without the TSA being there. There's without doubt a lot of people who've already done the "difficult working out", and not all of them ended up with "The TSA", or even anything vaguely similar. (Can I point out that from outside the USA, while I greatly admire things about your civil liberties - it _astounds_ me that those same people put up with the TSA. I have no choice, the privilege of visiting requires it, but pornoscanners and gropings for domestic travel, and Kafka-esque no-fly lists? I can't quite understand how "the land of the free" ended up there...)
- chrismcb 11y ago
  While the other countries don't have TSA most other countries have their own security theater.
  - Vivtek 11y ago
    Not like the TSA they don't. I'm an American with a Hungarian wife and we travel a lot. For the last ten years or so, every year entering the United States has been more and more like entering an armed camp. Really it's a whole lot like Eastern Europe used to be - the looks of suspicion, the whole "why did you even leave?" attitude. That's not TSA so much - on the contrary, TSA workers are, nearly without exception, pretty upbeat, efficient people enforcing rules they know are kind of silly. But Homeland Security as a whole is just one mistake after another, old-school Stalinist wannabes trying to bring back the good old Cold War gravy train. Entering Europe, on the other hand? Nobody cares. Hi, you're here, need a taxi? Just the way America used to be.
    - cguess 11y ago
      I feel ya. I'm an American citizen based in Eastern Europe (grew up in Milwaukee, let's say I don't pose an enormous "presence" or have much of an accent). Last time I came into Washington DC the border guide asked me "how long are you staying?" I very desperately wanted to just say "as long as I want."
Cthulhu_ 11y ago
If the TSA or Homeland Security doesn't report on how many terrorist attacks their invasive measures have stopped, then nobody will believe terrorism in the US is still a threat - and they will call for the disbandment of the TSA, cut in funding to Homeland Security and the other agencies like the NSA, etcetera. The police report on crime too - why should those organizations be exempt from that?
chrismcb 11y ago
How about nothing? We don't have security getting on a bus, we don't have security getting on a train, entering a mall, and barely have it entering a stadium. Why do we need it getting on a plane?
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  What country are you in? We (china) have security getting on the subway and trains, Thailand and phillipines have security going into malls.
  - cowsandmilk 11y ago
    He's in the US, which is where the TSA is generally present.
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      But he didn't mention the TSA specifically in his post. Anyways, if you look outside the USA for a saner system, you'll be quite disappointed.
- bottled_poe 11y ago
  Because, compared to those other vehicles, the difference between a plane and a guided missile is small.
  - vidarh 11y ago
    Yet there's been no epidemic in using planes as guided missiles, despite a long string of hijackings after 9/11. Even including the 9/11 hijackings, your odds of surviving a plane hijacking if you stay down and don't antagonise the hijackers are very good as most of them have goals that does not involve killing themselves or the planets unless absolutely necessary.
  - yardie 11y ago
    A guided missile is a an airframe packed with high explosives designed to destroy heavily fortified buildings and vehicles. A passenger plane is a lightweight airframe designed to carry people, cargo, and fuel. Besides the fact they both fly it is a world of difference. A passenger plane carrying 1/2 of its fuel capacity damaged the Pentagon. 2 passenger planes carrying 1/2 their fuel capacity obliterated the WTC towers. This says more about the design of the towers, and resulting engineering shortcuts, than it does about the planes themselves. .
rdtsc 11y ago
Well given the criticism if they actually stopped someone credible you betcha they'd blow the trumpet all over the news patting themselves on the back.

by blowski 11y ago

cwp 11y ago

Well, they don't have to be that creative, if 67 out of 70 attempts succeeded.

daeken 11y ago
We don't know what the attempts were, so we can't know if it requires real creativity and ingenuity or not.
- beagle3 11y ago
  There were previous reports that included very detailed descriptions, e.g. [0] from 2008. Some will probably be published this year too. [0] http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/01/28/tsa.bombtest/ http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/01/28/tsa.bombtest/
blowski 11y ago
To get terrorists to be more creative, you have to convince them that the TSA would notice so it's not worth trying to walk through security with a kalashnikov in your hand luggage. However, I accept your point that given the cost and inconvenience, it would be great if the TSA actually did notice.

lokedhs 11y ago

One could, for example, take a look at other countries that does not have the same level of security theatre. I have no data obviously (this being the Internet and all) but I wouldn't be surprised to see that there is no measurable difference between countries that have a more sane approach to security and the ones that follow the US lead with the security theatre.

mauricemir 11y ago
Not all countries have the same risk profile
- mattlutze 11y ago
  The US doesn't necessarily have the risk profile that it's made out to have.
  - mauricemir 11y ago
    Nor does it have the same risk profile as say Ireland or Iceland. Whether its over blown is a different debate and a much harder one to quantify.
- tremon 11y ago
  what risk profile? The administration has never presented a credible risk profile to justify these intrusions, has it? The usual response is to keep repeating the same mantras to downplay the severity of these intrustions, not to substantiate (or worse, quantify) any of the perceived threats.

bigiain 11y ago

There are a couple of hundred countries on the world that manage to run airports without the TSA being there. There's without doubt a lot of people who've already done the "difficult working out", and not all of them ended up with "The TSA", or even anything vaguely similar. (Can I point out that from outside the USA, while I greatly admire things about your civil liberties - it _astounds_ me that those same people put up with the TSA. I have no choice, the privilege of visiting requires it, but pornoscanners and gropings for domestic travel, and Kafka-esque no-fly lists? I can't quite understand how "the land of the free" ended up there...)

chrismcb 11y ago
While the other countries don't have TSA most other countries have their own security theater.
- Vivtek 11y ago
  Not like the TSA they don't. I'm an American with a Hungarian wife and we travel a lot. For the last ten years or so, every year entering the United States has been more and more like entering an armed camp. Really it's a whole lot like Eastern Europe used to be - the looks of suspicion, the whole "why did you even leave?" attitude. That's not TSA so much - on the contrary, TSA workers are, nearly without exception, pretty upbeat, efficient people enforcing rules they know are kind of silly. But Homeland Security as a whole is just one mistake after another, old-school Stalinist wannabes trying to bring back the good old Cold War gravy train. Entering Europe, on the other hand? Nobody cares. Hi, you're here, need a taxi? Just the way America used to be.
  - cguess 11y ago
    I feel ya. I'm an American citizen based in Eastern Europe (grew up in Milwaukee, let's say I don't pose an enormous "presence" or have much of an accent). Last time I came into Washington DC the border guide asked me "how long are you staying?" I very desperately wanted to just say "as long as I want."

Cthulhu_ 11y ago

If the TSA or Homeland Security doesn't report on how many terrorist attacks their invasive measures have stopped, then nobody will believe terrorism in the US is still a threat - and they will call for the disbandment of the TSA, cut in funding to Homeland Security and the other agencies like the NSA, etcetera. The police report on crime too - why should those organizations be exempt from that?

chrismcb 11y ago

How about nothing? We don't have security getting on a bus, we don't have security getting on a train, entering a mall, and barely have it entering a stadium. Why do we need it getting on a plane?

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
What country are you in? We (china) have security getting on the subway and trains, Thailand and phillipines have security going into malls.
- cowsandmilk 11y ago
  He's in the US, which is where the TSA is generally present.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    But he didn't mention the TSA specifically in his post. Anyways, if you look outside the USA for a saner system, you'll be quite disappointed.
bottled_poe 11y ago
Because, compared to those other vehicles, the difference between a plane and a guided missile is small.
- vidarh 11y ago
  Yet there's been no epidemic in using planes as guided missiles, despite a long string of hijackings after 9/11. Even including the 9/11 hijackings, your odds of surviving a plane hijacking if you stay down and don't antagonise the hijackers are very good as most of them have goals that does not involve killing themselves or the planets unless absolutely necessary.
- yardie 11y ago
  A guided missile is a an airframe packed with high explosives designed to destroy heavily fortified buildings and vehicles. A passenger plane is a lightweight airframe designed to carry people, cargo, and fuel. Besides the fact they both fly it is a world of difference. A passenger plane carrying 1/2 of its fuel capacity damaged the Pentagon. 2 passenger planes carrying 1/2 their fuel capacity obliterated the WTC towers. This says more about the design of the towers, and resulting engineering shortcuts, than it does about the planes themselves. .

rdtsc 11y ago

Well given the criticism if they actually stopped someone credible you betcha they'd blow the trumpet all over the news patting themselves on the back.