6 ms·

It really depends on skill and motivation. If your motivation is only money you are unlikely to succeed. Personally I am a big corp dev and making >600k/year o

• sosuke 11y ago
  Why does money motivation reduce your chances? I don't think being exceptional is enough, there are several open source projects created and maintained by exceptional devs, but they don't make >600k/year. Being exceptional working at anything but the right company won't make you money. Why do you thing "dev big corps" are better? What does that mean to you? I think of Microsoft, Google, IBM, Apple, but even after you get in there moving up to exceptional in a room of exceptional people is even a more meteoric task.
  • caminante 11y ago
    Maybe it's late, but I thought he answered your Q1 and Q2.
    • sosuke 11y ago
      It is late, I can't think super clear either, but I just read that he says money should not be the focus, but doesn't address why that is an issue. As to why big dev corps are better he didn't give any reasons for his belief, no examples. Person y makes $1 million a year at company x, but they aquihired their startup to get there. If I started at big dev corp as a senior developer and made $100k, what path does it take to get $600k, which company offers those incentives? I really just want some more detail.
      • caminante 11y ago
        For Q1, he said that money shouldn't be the ONLY focus. For Q2, I "think" he's saying that CorpDev > StartupDev in terms of expected wealth creation. In your example, you don't appear to be accounting for the volatility of your future CF's of $1M (StartupDev) and $100K (CorpDev) figures. Startups are risky bets compared to stable increases with CorpDev.
  • sparaker 11y ago
    100% agreed.
  • nudpiedo 11y ago
    I agree with you. I work in one of those which you mentioned in Germany, and I've less than 3 years experience. By accident I saw the payroll of a top-dev (top engineer actually), and it is "just the double" of mine. That makes makes for a good living with many luxuries Germany standard's but those guys are the ones who have to dance in front of the local CEO every week and can't enjoy weekends and work in the afternoon. They can afford sometimes low level luxury cars but for sure they can't stop working and just retire. For them work developing or implement something is a hobby they can do after a whole day full of meetings. Not a dream dev life, not a way to become actually rich. And I'd add: not a way to enjoy life (if you hate meetings and empty technical discussions which are not about the technical topic but about a political reason which usually sucks).
    • levosmetalo 11y ago
      Was in the same place as your top-dev. Was exhausted after a day of coding, without getting real appreciation, neither monetary, nor in terms on mindshare. I was always looked upon as an "IT guy" or "technical staff" that gets in the way of implementing great business and marketing ideas created in the heads of great minds, that were so great that it wasn't even possible to write them down accurately. Then I switched to management path, I found out that although I do only a very limited amount of coding at work right now, I'm enjoying it much more. As an added benefit, I am not mentally tired anymore when I come back home, since at work I only do blah-blah social, blah-blah report, blah-blah management. This leaves me with enough time and energy in the evening to work on really interesting projects for an excellent hourly rate, or on my own hobby stuff. The drawback? I don't watch TV anymore.
      • mistermann 11y ago
        > I was always looked upon as an "IT guy" or "technical staff" that gets in the way of implementing great business and marketing ideas created in the heads of great minds, that were so great that it wasn't even possible to write them down accurately. As someone else who works with people with self-proclaimed great ideas but are strangely reluctant to put any of these ideas on paper, it's comforting to know there are others out there who have to work amongst such nonsense. Edit: I'm curious....do you find now that you've made the move to management, have you had to adopt this same "less than honest" culture in order to be accepted within the middle management ranks?
• jerguismi 11y ago
  > I think as a dev big corps are the way better bet. Not much to loose, but possibly high payout. Startups very rarely pay out for devs. I disagree. These days the founders are devs more and more often. However, usually you have to get out of your comfort zone and do also other than dev work in a startup. Meaning also learning the business stuff. It isn't rocket science, but for many devs it can be quite uncomfortable.
  • starmole 11y ago
    Kind of my point. As a startup dev you have to learn biz. And a really great dev should not have to do that. It is a waste of time and talent. OP was asking how to make money as an engineer. Engineers can play the startup lottery. But they are unlikely to win it. You need a Jobs for every Woz. But as a Woz it is hard and unlikely to find a Jobs - and not get fucked over. Hence my advice.
  • moeamaya 11y ago
    I think you missed out on the point of compensation. Even as a first employee working at a startup, you're only expected to get 1-3% equity, but you're as you stated doing many things outside of dev work. Big Corp Devs perhaps don't have as many tangential responsibilities, but they will often start with a significantly increased base salary which can be a serious opportunity cost to consider.
• dmak 11y ago
  That is amazing. How did you work your way up to that? How old are you? AMA?
• soulbadguy 11y ago
  I would really love to pick you brain with one or two personal questions.
  • starmole 11y ago
    No idea how to send a PM on HN. There should be an email in my profile though.
    • dewey 11y ago
      The email in the profile isn't public, you'd have to add it to the about field.
    • soulbadguy 11y ago
      or you can ping me at GreyPhilo on reddit. Hope to chat with you :)
• soulbadguy 11y ago
  what do you mean by good, not exceptional...?
  • mastercoms 11y ago
    He is trying to make his sentence natural. As in, he is talking, and correcting himself by saying "good, hmm, uhh, no!, exceptional!"
• jerguismi 11y ago
  Is the $600k salary, bonuses, stock options or? Sounds quite incredible to me. I haven't heard from any dev making this kind of salary, not even in the big companies.
  • fmela 11y ago
    It's not unheard of for really exceptional devs at big tech companies to make a million or more.
    • zzalpha 11y ago
      "A million or more" in what? Base salary, salary + bonuses, or salary + handcuff compensation (e.g. options)?
  • zzalpha 11y ago
    That's what I'm trying to figure out. $600k salary+bonuses is C-level executive territory. The idea of an engineer making that kind of money in straight compensation sounds ludicrous to me. If it's in the form of options, you'll forgive me if I treat that as pretend money until it's transformed into real wealth.
    • mauricemir 11y ago
      fintech dev on wall street / the city probably can
    • starmole 11y ago
      600k including bonuses. Vested RSU bonuses. So real cash in hand. And those usually keep replenishing over time so after an initial delay it's compensation.
      • zzalpha 11y ago
        Ah, so base salary plus vested options, aka handcuffs. And you're getting, on average, what, 400-500k a year in RSUs vesting? Am I wrong is that basically bonkers as far as compensation goes? That feels at least a few standard deviations outside the mean... Which is great for you, and congratulations! But "win the lottery" doesn't make for very compelling early retirement advice. :)
• ryandrake 11y ago
  If what you say is true about your own situation, you must realize that you are an extreme outlier, and no general advice you give is going to allow someone to repeat your immense luck. "Be valuable and you will be paid" sounds like vague happy-talk, not concrete, repeatable steps that one can put into practice and replicate your success. Most people who are "exceptional at what they do" are putzing around at a corporation making a competitive, maybe above average salary. They are not on track to retire at 40. I've also noticed that it's always people with money who say, "don't be motivated only by money". Easy to say. It's called "compensation" because it exists to compensate you for doing something you otherwise wouldn't be doing. Plenty of successful people are motivated by money, and there is nothing shameful about it.
  • chubot 11y ago
    No, being motivated by money is likely to make you less wealthy, because it leads you to the same behaviors as other people seeking money. You are then competing with them, which lessens your likelihood of success. Read Peter Thiel's Zero to One. He talks about competition vs. monopoly. You want to do things that other people aren't doing. He talks about the Harvard MBA grads who chase the last bubble, i.e. getting your timing exactly wrong. People don't get rich by doing things other people told them to. And people don't get rich by doing "prestigious" things either. Read the parts here about prestige -- it's dead on: http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html http://www.paulgraham.com/love.html (BTW this is also coming from someone who "got lucky" -- can retire in my 30's but never thought about money.)
    • ryandrake 11y ago
      The problem with the simplistic "do what you love, love what you do" advice is that it is not reliable or repeatable. I can point to tons of people who love what they do and are still somewhere between solidly middle class and struggling to get by.
      • caminante 11y ago
        You're right that the "do what you love" advice is crap. However, I think -- and as Chubot points out -- you have to also avoid the same behaviors as others and offer something "rare and valuable" if you desire money. For those people that you can point to, do they offer the latter and do they have a good sense of when to cash in? This post from Cal Newport elaborates further[1]. I highly recommend his book So Good They Can't Ignore You. [1]http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/01/23/beyond-passion-the-science-of-loving-what-you-do/ http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/01/23/beyond-passion-the-sci...
• nattaggart 11y ago
  Well done sir. I think you are a little dismissive of the value of tech in start-ups though. Start-ups will typically need both better tech and better distribution to displace an incumbent. In my experience, the technology side of this is especially critical. Consumer start-ups, for example, often don't have sales teams at all. That said, budgetary constraints and optimism towards equity grants keep salaries well below 600k at start-ups :)
  • starmole 11y ago
    Startups a great! I worked in few and learned a lot. I just tried to address op's pretty direct question on how to make money as a dev. Startups are a very bad odds lottery for devs in the end. Even if you are amazing it does not make the startup fail or work. You might save it for aquihire though :)
  • veddox 11y ago
    I agree that in many startups their technological prowess plays a very large part in their success. However, most startups (as far as I am aware) do not actually "replace an incumbent". Usually it's more a case of "hey, I got this great new idea that no one has seriously approached before". They develop that idea, create a new niche-market and then get bought up by an incumbent of the main market.
• UK-AL 11y ago
  I think the number one people arnt well off is because people only dream about money, aren't actually really dedicated to working out how to get it. I've significantly increased my salary, job happiness, and working conditions by actively trying to shape my life and my job(Changing jobs as necessary). I've significantly cut down expenses. Resulting in me being fairly well off. Being fairly passive about may work, or may not work. I know plenty of brilliant people who love their work but get paid terribly for it. My strategy is actually fairly reproducible, instead of relying on luck. I've also found that all else being equal(same industry etc) salary is the number 1 indicator of respect on the job.
  • frrp 11y ago
    good point. Now tell us what is your strategy?