10 ms·

The culture where play is shameful (2012)

109 points by dirtyaura 11y ago

dang 11y ago
Url changed from http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-frowns-upon-sex-and-bans-play http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-fr..., which points to this.
comrade1 11y ago
I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. They sound so different than anything else and fascinating. This shows how important play is to develop imaginary things like gods, rituals, etc. however, I do wish American adults played a little less. Whenever I'm in the u.s. or when American friends visit me they're constantly futzing around on their phone playing games. I mean constantly and nearly everyone. Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. And before you say that people need to take a break every now and then the people playing these games don't seem to be taking it easy - they're working really hard it! So there probably is some value in shaming play, at least in adults.
- derefr 11y ago
  Those "casual" (not really) games are addictive without really being "fun" per se. People aren't playing at them, any more than they're playing a slot machine. They're just hooked on them, with social reinforcement by the same mechanisms as prime-time television (the water-cooler "did you get to see/do X last night" sort of conversation.) They're like viruses spreading through the population. There are probably a few reasons why America has the problem especially badly—maybe an higher-than-average prevalence of ADHD makes this sort of addiction easier to fall into; maybe being the origin of these games and their first launch-market means we get saturated in them (and especially in their coordinated "viral PR" launch campaigns) in a way few other countries do. Really, I think it's just that the social pressure factor is stronger—we really like having shared private experiences to talk about at water-coolers. See also: soap operas.
  - WalterBright 11y ago
    When playing a game, you're just a mouse running around in a maze. On the other hand, writing a game is creating the maze. This is far, far more engaging. It's like playing god.
  - justonepost 11y ago
    It's more like the games are playing the adults. It's "Core Wars" on a cloud based scale. The goal is to write a program that can virally consume timeshare amongst the 'cores' (people) that comprise our world wide mainframe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next...
  - beloch 11y ago
    I've never played phone-games much, but enough that I wondered if I could find a better use for the time. I found one: Chess Chess works pretty well as a phone-game. You can blitz against the computer and work through endlessly non-repeating permutations of mid and late game play that you'd rarely see against human opponents. Playing against your cell phone does not adequately prepare you for human opponents on its own, but it does help you improve your game. While being good at chess if of questionable utility, at least it's somewhat respected and can be used in social settings. It's viewed as a skill, unlike being good at flappy bird.
    - derefr 11y ago
      I should note that you're taking this a step further than I was: it's not all "phone games" that are bad (is there anything that "phone games" as a genre have in common?)—it's just what are commonly referred to as "free-to-play casual social games" that are insidious. You can have great game experiences on a phone! You can build good, fun games, either in-depth or casual, for mobile, just like you can build them for consoles. In fact, just because a game is "casual" doesn't make it bad! Some of my favorite games have been casual few-minutes-at-a-time pick-up-and-put-down things; non-time-based puzzle games (e.g. KAMI[1]) work especially well for this—they're functionally equivalent to doing a crossword puzzle—but even action games like Tiny Wings[2] can work if they're self-contained. Then, of course, you can also have things like RPGs and action-adventure games, of just the same quality you'd see from a console. The most important difference, I think, is that people don't tend to play the good games in the middle of a conversation. The good games are actually engrossing, and therefore can only be played as an exclusive action—you might see someone playing them on the bus, but never just fiddling with them while hanging out with friends. It's only the games with no fun-value at all that are capable of the "empty addiction" you see on people stuck pulling a slot-machine arm all day. [1] http://www.stateofplaygames.com/work/kami/ http://www.stateofplaygames.com/work/kami/ [2] http://www.andreasilliger.com/ http://www.andreasilliger.com/
- walshemj 11y ago
  Careful now D503 even speculating about play will have the Bureau of Guardians take you away to room 101.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    Oh dear Looks like my reference to We by Yevgeny Zamyatin went over peoples heads.
- iamcurious 11y ago
  Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. I disagree. The best way to learn a language is by playing. Reading compelling stories, making puns and jokes, flirting with the natives, having some fun! And I hold the same opinion with mathematics. You can learn to attack some classes of solved problems without having fun, but to be a mathematician you have to follow your sense of aesthetics. Now this is highly sophisticated fun, the kind that takes years to develop. But once you achieve it, it is bottomless, requires nothing but a little free time and it is so useful that our entire civilization runs on it!
- furyofantares 11y ago
  What you're describing regarding phones seems more like an addictive compulsion than play to me.
- jey 11y ago
  > Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. If they "play" Duolingo, they'd be doing both: having fun and learning a language.
- tootie 11y ago
  I'm guessing they are boring because every day is the same as the day before. They have no religion, no beliefs, no customs. None of the things antropologists get excited about.
- kijin 11y ago
  > I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. The stereotypical anthropologist studies foreign tribes by interviewing their members and observing their rituals. Rituals are particularly important because they yield a lot of data about a tribe's traditions and belief systems. But if the subjects refuse to chat and don't seem to hold any rituals over the course of a year, I can imagine why the anthropologist might get bored. He's not bored because his subjects are uninteresting. He's bored (or rather, frustrated) because he's unable to do the work that he came here to do.
- bane 11y ago
  > I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. Once you document day-to-day living, which is probably not too unlike most of their neighbors. The only thing left is to document differences. In this case "doesn't do anything interesting" pretty much closes the book on them and it's time to move on. Other groups will have interesting myths, or variations of myths, games, dances, music, etc. These guys basically just do nothing, and there's not a whole terrible lot that you can write about that.
- Xixi 11y ago
  Playing game on your smartphone and learning a (new) language are not necessarily incompatible: I'm addicted to memrise, which is very much like a game in its mechanics, but is teaching me an awful lot of useful Japanese words...
  - branchless 11y ago
    thanks just signed up for this for French. Let's see how it compares to the excellent anki.
flycaliguy 11y ago
Reminds me of my in-laws who get this puzzled look on their face when I (rarely) mention my music.
zem 11y ago
the comment thread is excellent, and a lot more insightful than the article (which was interesting, but seemed a bit simplified and superficial to me). note especially the comments from actual baining people.
- JesperRavn 11y ago
  The thread was very interesting, but I didn't see any posts by Baining people, which would be very interesting to me. Can you provide a link or the usernames they were using so I can search?
  - schoen 11y ago
    I looked through and saw only one, "Ngorana".
    - JesperRavn 11y ago
      Thanks. I'm reposing here because I found it hard to find: You think you understand?? Submitted by Ngorana of Sinivit, South Coast Baining, Papua New Guinea on August 7, 2012 - 7:49pm I agree that some cultures and child rearing and discipline can be restrictive, but brought up in a similar manner does not mean that we do not value our upbringing - and i do not see it as 'dull' or 'boring' or 'wrong'! From what I think, in the western society, perception of play and the correct form of discipline to be practiced on children is very different from the most cultures in the east. I must say, that in the previous works stated in the essay, of the Baining people saying little or nothing in interviews is due to the fact, that if you are not a member (specifically foreigner) of the concerned society amongst the Bainings, than you do not necessarily need to acquire knowledge of their cultural or philosophical way of life - except if you are 'married' into the society, adopted or asked to be part of the society. Baining people are very careful with what they say, and to who, especially about cultural practices - it is a taboo to inform foreigners about this. We are people of little talk. We believe more in actions, and that people must read and interpret them correctly. Something of which our children are taught. For Baining's of Sinivit of the south coast for example, play is accepted and taken as time-out. However, adults instill in children that working such as chopping fire wood, diving for fish, gardening, building houses, hunting and gathering is crucial in sustaining your self and your land - especially for males at a later age. Children are taught to be independent and self sufficient and less dependent on their parents or elders at a very young age. This whole concept of not allowing play in our daily lives to me is WRONG. The notion of them becoming young women or men one day is embedded into our thoughts by our elders, and that how we are brought up by them will determine what type of adults we will become. In return, the very existence and state of our land (our heritage) and its affairs depend greatly on our actions. We are taught to become hard workers and very private about our cultural affairs. You see, before the colonial era, we the Baining's inhabited the whole of the land of East New Britain. Invasion by a neighboring cultural group - the 'Tolai' people, forced us into the jungles and coastal area due south of the province. Our forefathers lost most of our valuable land, and people to cannibalism, practiced amongst these invaders. Then during the colonial area, the Germans enslaved them, forcing them into mining our alluvial gold and carrying them hundreds of kilometers inland and storing them away, in what was considered as sacred land - biding us against our cultural beliefs. Stories of these past events have further created a sense of secrecy in protecting our cultural ways (specifically the fire dance), and our land especially. Baining people do not depend on other related societies to survive out in the natural environment, and land and sea is seen as a commodity of which is treasured and priceless. 'You reap what you sow', is highly emphasized in our cultural society - something of which may be deemed archaic in biblical times.... And so, in my opinion the essay composed by Dr Grey based on some the works of Fajan's is quite biased if you ask me. People do not have the right to be 'frustrated' when studying foreign cultures - you simply have to endure it, or stop wasting your time. Culture is not just something you record, observe and interpret over time, its how well you integrate yourself into the traditions, beliefs and practices of the people of that particular heritage and understand it and its people. Most importantly, you must respect these aspects, as not one culture no matter how much you see it as perfect, is seen as perfect or the correct practice for different cultural societies.
adevine 11y ago
Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. I am amazed by the unique capability of humans to take our most ingrained needs and desires and turn them into shame. Whether it be sex, or food, or "wasting time", or even just displays of emotion, we have somehow managed to turn these most central of human feelings into something bad. I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start.
- javert 11y ago
  > I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. As soon as you say something like this, you concede the argument. You are equating human happiness with "giving in to base urges," which couldn't be further from the truth.
  - blueflow 11y ago
    People find happiness in very different things. And be more careful while using the term "truth" for something that only applies to you and other people similar to you.
    - javert 11y ago
      I meant what I said. Nobody can experience happiness by giving in to whims and random urges without considering the long term. However, the good for a human being does consist in enjoying life and experiencing good emotion. So, this was a false dichotomy: > I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. To be specific, the options are not: deny pleasure on the one hand, or give in to short-term base urges on the other hand with no thought to the consequences. That is a false dichotomy.
  - adevine 11y ago
    By "base urges", I mean that quite literally, and not with a negative connotation. I mean the most fundamental of human needs: food, sex, emotional expression. I mean that we should take delight in a great meal, but not to the point that we overdose on food to the point where it's harmful and no longer pleasurable. Same thing goes for sex and emotional expression.
Red_Tarsius 11y ago
It's like an alien culture out of a Star Trek episode. Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological development. The fuel of progress is play and Learning by example is no substitute for trial and error. On top of that, a play-less culture is not resilient at all, and therefore prone to extinction.
- Aqwis 11y ago
  >It's like an alien culture out of a Star Trek episode. Agree, it reminded me of the "Planet of Hats"[1] trope. [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats
- lovemenot 11y ago
  I believe one of the most difficult aspects of anthropology is to extract ones own cultural biases from observations. >> Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological development It's not that I disagree with you per se. Rather that you just stated baldly as fact, what are clearly just your own (and my own) biases. >> a play-less culture is not resilient at all, and therefore prone to extinction. Perhaps, but against that, it seems the Baining people have been this way for at least a hundred years. Perhaps considerably longer.
  - oldmanjay 11y ago
    well they aren't exactly thriving using a modern understanding of the word. in a sense, they avoided extinction narrowly by not being found by a white dude with an evangelical streak at the wrong point in history
- elihu 11y ago
  The article reminded me of the "Country of Adults" from Kino no Tabi.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
amelius 11y ago
I wonder how this culture would transform if it were subjected to facebook.
aaa123456 11y ago
Sounds like Asian parents, especially 'Tiger Moms'.
bane 11y ago
Papua New Guinea is endlessly studied. Jared Diamond speculates various reasons for why the people there didn't develop into a post-hunter-gatherer civilization (or much beyond that). While much of his work has been disputed, I think it's still an interesting question. I can't help sometimes when reading anthropological studies or videos of a pre-modern civilization that a terrible amount of time is spent on rituals and dances and other things and perhaps the key is that other, faster developing groups of people simply found a different balance between work and these non-productive activities. However, the Baining seem to represent the opposite end, doing nothing but productive work, and yet they aren't exactly the unusually advanced Atlanteans of PNG either. So I was struck by this "and exhibited little curiosity or enthusiasm" and it kind of hits me how important imagination and enthusiasm are in the process of advancing things. Toil gets stuff done, but you're just running in place. Imagination is a kind of play, and it's necessary to move you forward as well.
- wodenokoto 11y ago
  > Jared Diamond speculates various reasons for why the people there didn't develop into a post-hunter-gatherer civilization (or much beyond that). While much of his work has been disputed So it would be a waste of time to read Guns Germs and Steel, since it is mostly disputed? What would be a good alternative then?
  - tedunangst 11y ago
    He makes some interesting observations, but stretches some of the conclusions quite a bit. Basically suffers from a lot of confirmation bias. Tends to ignore or overlook contradictory evidence.
    - soperj 11y ago
      Definitely agree with that. Especially about the domestication large fauna in North America. How can you completely ignore the buffalo?
      - 11y ago
dschiptsov 11y ago
There must be some confusion, at least with too abstract concepts. Every evolutionary psychologist will tell you that "play" is how humans and animals learn - by imitating and "practising". It is related to social and especially matting "skills", or, a more correct world - "habits". Play is evolutionary way to develop useful habits. So-called "mirror neurons" meme explains social aspect of "play". If this society isn't extinguished yet, it means that observed phenomena is rather a product if imagination and wishful thinking. But nowadays everything written without obscene words and spelling errors could be considered " scientific".
Reason077 11y ago
While reading this article, I mentally replaced "Baining" with "British". And sadly, it rang true.
- rollthehard6 11y ago
  If that were really true nobody would be trying to figure out why the UK is so unproductive, either that or we are working very hard doing very little (Said he on HN at work).
pizu 11y ago
"She found, however, that she could study them by following them around and observing their daily activities and interactions." Are you f$%"£ kidding me? This sounds like such a revelation but is so bleeding obvious. Of course you have to observe people in their natural habitat, WATCHING them, not just sending them a SurveyMonkey survey or asking a buncha questions. C'mon people. Get real!
- pcrh 11y ago
  The author was contrasting Fajans approach with that adopted by two previous anthropologists, who had abandoned the tribe as "boring" or "unstudiable".

109 points by dirtyaura 11y ago

dang 11y ago

Url changed from http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-frowns-upon-sex-and-bans-play http://io9.com/5929918/so-called-dullest-culture-on-earth-fr..., which points to this.

comrade1 11y ago

I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. They sound so different than anything else and fascinating. This shows how important play is to develop imaginary things like gods, rituals, etc. however, I do wish American adults played a little less. Whenever I'm in the u.s. or when American friends visit me they're constantly futzing around on their phone playing games. I mean constantly and nearly everyone. Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. And before you say that people need to take a break every now and then the people playing these games don't seem to be taking it easy - they're working really hard it! So there probably is some value in shaming play, at least in adults.

derefr 11y ago
Those "casual" (not really) games are addictive without really being "fun" per se. People aren't playing at them, any more than they're playing a slot machine. They're just hooked on them, with social reinforcement by the same mechanisms as prime-time television (the water-cooler "did you get to see/do X last night" sort of conversation.) They're like viruses spreading through the population. There are probably a few reasons why America has the problem especially badly—maybe an higher-than-average prevalence of ADHD makes this sort of addiction easier to fall into; maybe being the origin of these games and their first launch-market means we get saturated in them (and especially in their coordinated "viral PR" launch campaigns) in a way few other countries do. Really, I think it's just that the social pressure factor is stronger—we really like having shared private experiences to talk about at water-coolers. See also: soap operas.
- WalterBright 11y ago
  When playing a game, you're just a mouse running around in a maze. On the other hand, writing a game is creating the maze. This is far, far more engaging. It's like playing god.
- justonepost 11y ago
  It's more like the games are playing the adults. It's "Core Wars" on a cloud based scale. The goal is to write a program that can virally consume timeshare amongst the 'cores' (people) that comprise our world wide mainframe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game_%28Star_Trek:_The_Next...
- beloch 11y ago
  I've never played phone-games much, but enough that I wondered if I could find a better use for the time. I found one: Chess Chess works pretty well as a phone-game. You can blitz against the computer and work through endlessly non-repeating permutations of mid and late game play that you'd rarely see against human opponents. Playing against your cell phone does not adequately prepare you for human opponents on its own, but it does help you improve your game. While being good at chess if of questionable utility, at least it's somewhat respected and can be used in social settings. It's viewed as a skill, unlike being good at flappy bird.
  - derefr 11y ago
    I should note that you're taking this a step further than I was: it's not all "phone games" that are bad (is there anything that "phone games" as a genre have in common?)—it's just what are commonly referred to as "free-to-play casual social games" that are insidious. You can have great game experiences on a phone! You can build good, fun games, either in-depth or casual, for mobile, just like you can build them for consoles. In fact, just because a game is "casual" doesn't make it bad! Some of my favorite games have been casual few-minutes-at-a-time pick-up-and-put-down things; non-time-based puzzle games (e.g. KAMI[1]) work especially well for this—they're functionally equivalent to doing a crossword puzzle—but even action games like Tiny Wings[2] can work if they're self-contained. Then, of course, you can also have things like RPGs and action-adventure games, of just the same quality you'd see from a console. The most important difference, I think, is that people don't tend to play the good games in the middle of a conversation. The good games are actually engrossing, and therefore can only be played as an exclusive action—you might see someone playing them on the bus, but never just fiddling with them while hanging out with friends. It's only the games with no fun-value at all that are capable of the "empty addiction" you see on people stuck pulling a slot-machine arm all day. [1] http://www.stateofplaygames.com/work/kami/ http://www.stateofplaygames.com/work/kami/ [2] http://www.andreasilliger.com/ http://www.andreasilliger.com/
walshemj 11y ago
Careful now D503 even speculating about play will have the Bureau of Guardians take you away to room 101.
- walshemj 11y ago
  Oh dear Looks like my reference to We by Yevgeny Zamyatin went over peoples heads.
iamcurious 11y ago
Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. I disagree. The best way to learn a language is by playing. Reading compelling stories, making puns and jokes, flirting with the natives, having some fun! And I hold the same opinion with mathematics. You can learn to attack some classes of solved problems without having fun, but to be a mathematician you have to follow your sense of aesthetics. Now this is highly sophisticated fun, the kind that takes years to develop. But once you achieve it, it is bottomless, requires nothing but a little free time and it is so useful that our entire civilization runs on it!
furyofantares 11y ago
What you're describing regarding phones seems more like an addictive compulsion than play to me.
jey 11y ago
> Imagine how much you could accomplish if you used that time to for example learn a new language. If they "play" Duolingo, they'd be doing both: having fun and learning a language.
tootie 11y ago
I'm guessing they are boring because every day is the same as the day before. They have no religion, no beliefs, no customs. None of the things antropologists get excited about.
kijin 11y ago
> I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. The stereotypical anthropologist studies foreign tribes by interviewing their members and observing their rituals. Rituals are particularly important because they yield a lot of data about a tribe's traditions and belief systems. But if the subjects refuse to chat and don't seem to hold any rituals over the course of a year, I can imagine why the anthropologist might get bored. He's not bored because his subjects are uninteresting. He's bored (or rather, frustrated) because he's unable to do the work that he came here to do.
bane 11y ago
> I don't see how the early anthropologists would be so bored with this tribe. Once you document day-to-day living, which is probably not too unlike most of their neighbors. The only thing left is to document differences. In this case "doesn't do anything interesting" pretty much closes the book on them and it's time to move on. Other groups will have interesting myths, or variations of myths, games, dances, music, etc. These guys basically just do nothing, and there's not a whole terrible lot that you can write about that.
Xixi 11y ago
Playing game on your smartphone and learning a (new) language are not necessarily incompatible: I'm addicted to memrise, which is very much like a game in its mechanics, but is teaching me an awful lot of useful Japanese words...
- branchless 11y ago
  thanks just signed up for this for French. Let's see how it compares to the excellent anki.

flycaliguy 11y ago

Reminds me of my in-laws who get this puzzled look on their face when I (rarely) mention my music.

zem 11y ago

the comment thread is excellent, and a lot more insightful than the article (which was interesting, but seemed a bit simplified and superficial to me). note especially the comments from actual baining people.

JesperRavn 11y ago
The thread was very interesting, but I didn't see any posts by Baining people, which would be very interesting to me. Can you provide a link or the usernames they were using so I can search?
- schoen 11y ago
  I looked through and saw only one, "Ngorana".
  - JesperRavn 11y ago
    Thanks. I'm reposing here because I found it hard to find: You think you understand?? Submitted by Ngorana of Sinivit, South Coast Baining, Papua New Guinea on August 7, 2012 - 7:49pm I agree that some cultures and child rearing and discipline can be restrictive, but brought up in a similar manner does not mean that we do not value our upbringing - and i do not see it as 'dull' or 'boring' or 'wrong'! From what I think, in the western society, perception of play and the correct form of discipline to be practiced on children is very different from the most cultures in the east. I must say, that in the previous works stated in the essay, of the Baining people saying little or nothing in interviews is due to the fact, that if you are not a member (specifically foreigner) of the concerned society amongst the Bainings, than you do not necessarily need to acquire knowledge of their cultural or philosophical way of life - except if you are 'married' into the society, adopted or asked to be part of the society. Baining people are very careful with what they say, and to who, especially about cultural practices - it is a taboo to inform foreigners about this. We are people of little talk. We believe more in actions, and that people must read and interpret them correctly. Something of which our children are taught. For Baining's of Sinivit of the south coast for example, play is accepted and taken as time-out. However, adults instill in children that working such as chopping fire wood, diving for fish, gardening, building houses, hunting and gathering is crucial in sustaining your self and your land - especially for males at a later age. Children are taught to be independent and self sufficient and less dependent on their parents or elders at a very young age. This whole concept of not allowing play in our daily lives to me is WRONG. The notion of them becoming young women or men one day is embedded into our thoughts by our elders, and that how we are brought up by them will determine what type of adults we will become. In return, the very existence and state of our land (our heritage) and its affairs depend greatly on our actions. We are taught to become hard workers and very private about our cultural affairs. You see, before the colonial era, we the Baining's inhabited the whole of the land of East New Britain. Invasion by a neighboring cultural group - the 'Tolai' people, forced us into the jungles and coastal area due south of the province. Our forefathers lost most of our valuable land, and people to cannibalism, practiced amongst these invaders. Then during the colonial area, the Germans enslaved them, forcing them into mining our alluvial gold and carrying them hundreds of kilometers inland and storing them away, in what was considered as sacred land - biding us against our cultural beliefs. Stories of these past events have further created a sense of secrecy in protecting our cultural ways (specifically the fire dance), and our land especially. Baining people do not depend on other related societies to survive out in the natural environment, and land and sea is seen as a commodity of which is treasured and priceless. 'You reap what you sow', is highly emphasized in our cultural society - something of which may be deemed archaic in biblical times.... And so, in my opinion the essay composed by Dr Grey based on some the works of Fajan's is quite biased if you ask me. People do not have the right to be 'frustrated' when studying foreign cultures - you simply have to endure it, or stop wasting your time. Culture is not just something you record, observe and interpret over time, its how well you integrate yourself into the traditions, beliefs and practices of the people of that particular heritage and understand it and its people. Most importantly, you must respect these aspects, as not one culture no matter how much you see it as perfect, is seen as perfect or the correct practice for different cultural societies.

adevine 11y ago

Ugh, that culture sounds like hell on earth. I am amazed by the unique capability of humans to take our most ingrained needs and desires and turn them into shame. Whether it be sex, or food, or "wasting time", or even just displays of emotion, we have somehow managed to turn these most central of human feelings into something bad. I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start.

javert 11y ago
> I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. As soon as you say something like this, you concede the argument. You are equating human happiness with "giving in to base urges," which couldn't be further from the truth.
- blueflow 11y ago
  People find happiness in very different things. And be more careful while using the term "truth" for something that only applies to you and other people similar to you.
  - javert 11y ago
    I meant what I said. Nobody can experience happiness by giving in to whims and random urges without considering the long term. However, the good for a human being does consist in enjoying life and experiencing good emotion. So, this was a false dichotomy: > I'm not arguing that we should completely give ourselves over to our base urges, but acknowledging they exist, that everyone has them, and that they can be a wonderful thing would be a great start. To be specific, the options are not: deny pleasure on the one hand, or give in to short-term base urges on the other hand with no thought to the consequences. That is a false dichotomy.
- adevine 11y ago
  By "base urges", I mean that quite literally, and not with a negative connotation. I mean the most fundamental of human needs: food, sex, emotional expression. I mean that we should take delight in a great meal, but not to the point that we overdose on food to the point where it's harmful and no longer pleasurable. Same thing goes for sex and emotional expression.

Red_Tarsius 11y ago

It's like an alien culture out of a Star Trek episode. Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological development. The fuel of progress is play and Learning by example is no substitute for trial and error. On top of that, a play-less culture is not resilient at all, and therefore prone to extinction.

Aqwis 11y ago
>It's like an alien culture out of a Star Trek episode. Agree, it reminded me of the "Planet of Hats"[1] trope. [1]: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats
lovemenot 11y ago
I believe one of the most difficult aspects of anthropology is to extract ones own cultural biases from observations. >> Play is not an anomaly, but the essence of personal and technological development It's not that I disagree with you per se. Rather that you just stated baldly as fact, what are clearly just your own (and my own) biases. >> a play-less culture is not resilient at all, and therefore prone to extinction. Perhaps, but against that, it seems the Baining people have been this way for at least a hundred years. Perhaps considerably longer.
- oldmanjay 11y ago
  well they aren't exactly thriving using a modern understanding of the word. in a sense, they avoided extinction narrowly by not being found by a white dude with an evangelical streak at the wrong point in history
elihu 11y ago
The article reminded me of the "Country of Adults" from Kino no Tabi.

deleted 11y ago

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amelius 11y ago

I wonder how this culture would transform if it were subjected to facebook.

aaa123456 11y ago

Sounds like Asian parents, especially 'Tiger Moms'.

bane 11y ago

Papua New Guinea is endlessly studied. Jared Diamond speculates various reasons for why the people there didn't develop into a post-hunter-gatherer civilization (or much beyond that). While much of his work has been disputed, I think it's still an interesting question. I can't help sometimes when reading anthropological studies or videos of a pre-modern civilization that a terrible amount of time is spent on rituals and dances and other things and perhaps the key is that other, faster developing groups of people simply found a different balance between work and these non-productive activities. However, the Baining seem to represent the opposite end, doing nothing but productive work, and yet they aren't exactly the unusually advanced Atlanteans of PNG either. So I was struck by this "and exhibited little curiosity or enthusiasm" and it kind of hits me how important imagination and enthusiasm are in the process of advancing things. Toil gets stuff done, but you're just running in place. Imagination is a kind of play, and it's necessary to move you forward as well.

wodenokoto 11y ago
> Jared Diamond speculates various reasons for why the people there didn't develop into a post-hunter-gatherer civilization (or much beyond that). While much of his work has been disputed So it would be a waste of time to read Guns Germs and Steel, since it is mostly disputed? What would be a good alternative then?
- tedunangst 11y ago
  He makes some interesting observations, but stretches some of the conclusions quite a bit. Basically suffers from a lot of confirmation bias. Tends to ignore or overlook contradictory evidence.
  - soperj 11y ago
    Definitely agree with that. Especially about the domestication large fauna in North America. How can you completely ignore the buffalo?
    - 11y ago

dschiptsov 11y ago

There must be some confusion, at least with too abstract concepts. Every evolutionary psychologist will tell you that "play" is how humans and animals learn - by imitating and "practising". It is related to social and especially matting "skills", or, a more correct world - "habits". Play is evolutionary way to develop useful habits. So-called "mirror neurons" meme explains social aspect of "play". If this society isn't extinguished yet, it means that observed phenomena is rather a product if imagination and wishful thinking. But nowadays everything written without obscene words and spelling errors could be considered " scientific".

Reason077 11y ago

While reading this article, I mentally replaced "Baining" with "British". And sadly, it rang true.

rollthehard6 11y ago
If that were really true nobody would be trying to figure out why the UK is so unproductive, either that or we are working very hard doing very little (Said he on HN at work).

pizu 11y ago

"She found, however, that she could study them by following them around and observing their daily activities and interactions." Are you f$%"£ kidding me? This sounds like such a revelation but is so bleeding obvious. Of course you have to observe people in their natural habitat, WATCHING them, not just sending them a SurveyMonkey survey or asking a buncha questions. C'mon people. Get real!

pcrh 11y ago
The author was contrasting Fajans approach with that adopted by two previous anthropologists, who had abandoned the tribe as "boring" or "unstudiable".