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The rise and decline of Subway, the world’s biggest food chain
- Mithaldu 11y agoImo Subway is losing because it's the world's slowest fast food. I do enjoy Subway, but (at least here in germany) you can't get it delivered, and the process of pondering and ordering and watching them slowly put it together is excruciating and pointless exercise in standing around and wasting time, especially when you've watched it 4 times already with the people in front of you.
- Coincoin 11y agoTotally agree. I always felt that Subways offer was too low and couldn't scale well. It takes too much manpower to make a single meal and their work is hard to parallelize. When they introduced the inefficient microwave type toaster to compete Quiznos it just made matters worst.
- astrange 11y agoIt's a poor value proposition compared to any local sandwich shop (Ike's in NorCal, Firehouse, Potbelly, &c), because their food is lowest-common-denominator with no local ingredients, they have those obsesity causing "healthy" low-fat/high-sugar options, and they're not faster. Are they actually cheaper? It is made of real food and pretty inoffensive, so it's not bad or anything.
- arrrg 11y agoThat’s a completely different perspective to the German one, by the way. There just aren’t any sandwich shops in Germany (this is obviously hyperbole so don’t you dare correct me on this one) and Subway actually is pretty much unique in that regard. (I don’t think bakeries count, cause their selection sandwiches, besides being much, much smaller, is usually not their main focus and also quite different from what you get in a Subway, though that might be a valid counterpoint depending on your perspective.) Obviously there are other fast food options with similar parts, most notably probably Döner Kebab, which is very sandwich-like (grilled meat, often pita bread, salad, cabbage, tomatoes, onions, etc., white and red sauce of some description). I would guess it’s Subway’s main competitor in Germany. Not a chain, since Germany apparently doesn’t do fast food chains. Some cities might have a couple restaurants with the same owner and that’s about it. Now that I think about it that’s actually really weird, but probably not. There are all these chain restaurants in the US and Germany for some weird reason doesn’t really have that at all. It’s either imported (McDonald’s, Burger King, KFC, Pizza Hut) or the odd exception (Maredo, Block House, Joey’s), I guess. It would be interesting to see whether you could build a national Döner chain in Germany.
- douche 11y agoOne of the things I miss most from the semester I spent in Berlin in college is the little hole-in-the-wall doner stores on seemingly every street. Here in the States, I can find Greek gyros in places, but I really enjoy the Turkish variant better.
- m_mueller 11y agoI'm a Swiss German who mostly stays abroad nowadays and the three things I miss most is decent sausage[1], decent bread[2] and Doner Kebab. [1] What is everyone doing with their spare meat parts? [2] Is bread something that you noticed in Berlin? Or is it just personnal taste? I never had anything that didn't come out of a bakery in a German speaking country that was (a) satisfying and (b) not baguette. Hmm too many negations here. Let me try again - 'The only bread I like abroad is Baguette (sometimes)'. ;-)
- douche 11y agoOn the whole, the food in Berlin was consistently better than what I have found elsewhere. I was there in 2009, and so the dollar was in the tank compared to the euro, but even so, prices were also pretty good. I do really miss the small corner bakeries and all the different varieties of brotchens. Also the coldcuts - its very difficult to find ham, for instance, that is anywhere near as good as I found in Germany; 95% of what is in U.S. supermarkets is basic boiled Virginia or Polish ham.
- douche 11y agoSubway is a subpar sub shop at best, and it no longer really has the advantage of being pretty cheap (remember $5 footlongs? Not so much anymore). This may be a Maine thing, as I haven't noticed it as much in other states, but I would much rather go to a mom & pop gas station/general store and order an Italian than go to Subway. It's superior in every way: faster, cheaper, better ingredients, more toppings. Of course it doesn't really scale...
- joshuapants 11y agoI would certainly rather go to a Wawa than a Subway, though regrettably the closest Wawa to me is half an hour away. Luckily there is no shortage of independent sandwich shops near me, but sometimes I really just want the Wawa experience.
- covercash 11y agoI actually think Wawa quality is about on par with Subway these days. First they started using pre-sliced meats, now they bake lower quality rolls in the store (they have a chewiness to them, much like Subway rolls). The only thing that's better is their ordering process and even that bottlenecks at the register. They should add payment processing directly to the touch screen terminals.
- tedunangst 11y agoAnother consequence of people caring more about how than what. They don't want good rolls; they want fresh rolls. "Made on site!"
- jessaustin 11y agoYes declarative sandwich-ordering is superior to the imperative variety. It certainly seems so when someone picky (or worse, someone on the phone with someone picky) is ahead of me in line.
- ghaff 11y ago
- bluedino 11y ago>> Imo Subway is losing because it's the world's slowest fast food. One great thing about Jimmy John's is you order a sub by a number, and if you don't want some topping or want an add-on, you just say so. You're not picking and choosing items in line. If there are more than 5-6 people in line at Subway I just turn around and walk back out the door, where Jimmy John's can make and serve sandwiches pretty much as fast as people can pay.
- austenallred 11y agoAlthough a three percent dip one year it's hardly endemic failure, anecdotally the quality of food I can get at Subway has been in slow decline. It's one of my favorite places to eat, but now when I go it's white lettuce, tomatoes that are pink at best, and I just hope to cover it with enough sauce to mask everything. I don't pretend to understand the entire dynamic of them being on every corner now, food prices, no longer having five dollar foot longs, etc. but almost across the board the food seems to be turning sub-par.
- kai3x5 11y agoIt certainly is slower than Jimmy John's. Has anyone found a faster "sub" shop than Jimmy John's?
- webdevsblow 11y agoWhat is going on with that web page? The browser gives some security warnings and only the headings load. Is this another shining example of modern web excrement where we are required to let things run rampant in the browser just to view an article?
- rgbrenner 11y agoit loads fine for me on chrome on Win7. the ssl warning is because it's an SHA-1 cert that expires after 1/1/2016.
- linker3000 11y agoDid anyone else get a few seconds of autoplay sound/advert? Something fired up on my tablet (Boat Browser on a rooted Samsung running adaway), but before I could investigate it stopped again.
- linker3000 11y agoI walk down an alleyway next to a Subway every day on my way to work and all I can smell is some sour/yeasty/herby concoction that doesn't inspire me to want to go in. I think I've been in a Subway shop about 3 times in my 49-year life.
- brc 11y agoExactly! They never smell like a fresh bread/sandwich shop should. I think I've had two in my life.
- AaronIG 11y agoI worked at a Subway while in high school, and I agree the smell is not very inviting. Even the dough, once thawed, has a strange odor to it, though the biggest cause of that funky odor you smell is the bread proofer located beneath the oven. It circulates warm moist air around the bread to help it rise. The thing is, it's not cleaned regularly (at least it wasn't at three different stores I worked in), and when left unchecked mold forms on the bottom.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- DigitalSea 11y agoThe truth is, Subway only do a few limited options and they do them rather poorly. It's still at the end of the day no matter what combinations you come up with (like meatballs) just a sandwich, one that seemingly takes forever to make and in my opinion is quite pricey for sub-par frozen ingredients full of preservatives. Subway lacks innovation. For a chain that can operate inside of shipping containers suspended by crane on high-rise construction sites, they seem to lack the foresight to improve their lengthy process for making a sandwich. Every Subway store you go to seems to be understaffed which just adds to the wait time. Here in Australia if you go to a McDonald's in a metropolitan area you're literally stepping into a restaurant. They take your order, they seat you and then bring out your food on a wooden board (chips come in a basket). Compare that to Subway, where you stand in line while you watch a student make your sandwich (sometimes in a hasty way) only for the end result to either be cold because they're understaffed or fall apart if you take it out of the wrapper. I like Subway, but there are arguably much better sandwich shops out there. When I was in Seattle for work a few months ago, Jimmy Johns was my go to. They only do a few sandwiches, but they're really fast, cheap, customer service is great and their sandwiches taste really fresh (something you can't say about Subway).
- NamTaf 11y ago>Here in Australia if you go to a McDonald's in a metropolitan area you're literally stepping into a restaurant. They take your order, they seat you and then bring out your food on a wooden board (chips come in a basket). Pardon? In every single McDonalds I've been to here, you now place your order and get given a numbered ticket. You then loiter at the counter until your number comes up and you can collect it.
- DigitalSea 11y agoWhat part of Australia are you in? It's not all stores, but McDonald's have started turning their Australian stores into restaurants. Gone are the days of taking a number and waiting around for your grease stained paper bag. I am in Brisbane (Queensland) and a few of the McDonald's in my area have this "Create Your Taste" in which you can actually build your own burger and meals from a massive touch-screen if you like. The burger comes out on a wooden like chopping board and the chips in a basket, similar to how your food comes out somewhere like Grill'd. https://mcdonalds.com.au/create-your-taste https://mcdonalds.com.au/create-your-taste - this article on Lifehacker shows you what the new McDonald's is like now: http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2014/10/taste-test-inside-mcdonalds-futuristic-restaurant/ http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2014/10/taste-test-inside-mcdon... (Ignore the part about it only being available in a single store, there are a few of them around now.) It's funny in the US McDonald's in particular is struggling as well as Subway and others in the face of upstarts like In-N-Out burger, but here in Australia McDonald's is innovating and becoming the benchmark for a new kind of McDonald's.
- untog 11y agoIt's interesting, I'd say that Subway were absolutely ahead of the game when it came to healthy eating - and made moves that chains like McDonalds haven't even matched yet. Maybe that's the fate of all these chains - you innovate to get in front, then you go stale. I'm sure it'll happen to Chipotle eventually, too.
- jessaustin 11y agoInnovation is part of it, but in the Subway example you see another phenomenon, which one could call "profit-taking" in analogy to the financial-media cliche. That is, a decade ago when Subway was in growth mode, they didn't want anything to prevent new franchisees from signing up. They kept their fees and ingredient prices low, and the low prices were passed on to the customer. The parent company probably didn't worry about profit during that time. Now they feel like they have enough franchises, and it's time to make some money. When prices are raised, the parent company makes more money, even though the franchisees probably make less, because they get a similar percentage on lower volume. Franchisees make up for that by getting really cheap, especially on labor. Because people are creatures of habit, there are still customers, even now that the same crappy sandwich that used to be $3.50 is now twice that. Eventually Subway will be like Arby's (maybe KFC is like this now as well): such a bad deal for so long that no one goes there anymore. Perhaps like McD's, Taco Bell, etc. have in the past they'll be able to get investors interested in supporting a cycle of lower costs.
- ghaff 11y agoSubway was ahead of the game in putting together an advertising campaign to position themselves as healthy compared to McDonald's etc. I'm skeptical that their mainstream products were actually so much healthier.
- r00fus 11y agoI really liked Subway back in my college days in the 90s. What I don't like for the past decade is that I found I'm somewhat sensitive to gluten and have cut any unnecessary sandwiches from my diet. Ostensibly, Chipotle (and even Taco Bell) can offer me a meal that's relatively gluten free (and even low on carbs for the carb-conscious). I wonder if the Atkins anti-yeast anti-carb and simultaneous gluten free awareness efforts are impacting the chain? Is Panera Bread doing well, while Subway isn't? Why? I know they did have some ok-tasting atkins-compliant wraps a while back, but not sure anymore.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- brador 11y agoWhat is your reaction to gluten? What happens?
- r00fus 11y agoFairly allergic, skin breakouts and general nausea, some congestion. Allergy tabs help me cope if I have no choice. Got a friend with nuts/eggs allergy and it's the same - we shared notes that cetirizine is quite effective for both of us.
- ourmandave 11y agoI like Subway because it seems healthier than McD's, et al. and it's predictable (like McD's). But lately there's a certain price point which they seem to have exceeded that's sending me back to drive thrus.
- firebones 11y agoIt is illustrative to read through some of the franchisee message boards where Subway owners talk. From what I recall, the margins are incredibly low and profits hinge largely on "combo" chips and drinks deals. Subway is getting hit high and low: high from fast casual, low from convenience stores which can add in sandwiches made on premises (small remodels, no rent or significant additional overhead, ability to leverage existing business infrastructure). Minimum wage laws will sink a lot of these franchises soon. One immigrant-owned Subway in my area seems to be surviving only by stretching vacation visa laws with a rotating cast of visiting relatives working the line. It's no coincidence that it is in the same strip mall as a couple of nail salons.
- whoopdedo 11y ago> convenience stores which can add in sandwiches made on premises (small remodels, no rent or significant additional overhead, ability to leverage existing business infrastructure). All the Subways around where I live are part of a gas station & convenience store.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- joezydeco 11y agoFrom my conversations with some of my clients (who supply Subway franchisees with equipment), the $5 foot longs were virtually sold as loss leaders for the chips and soda. The franchisees were killed by people that bought only the sandwiches and ran.
- Hominem 11y agoSubway has a brand problem,most people no longer want the cheapest food around and those that do will go to food trucks or places more "authentic". Subway is now viewed as everything wrong with American food. For one thing, it is insufficiently "artisanal" for today's consumers. If I was opening a sandwich shop, I would actually offer less options. I would offer a "curated" selection of sandwiches, changing daily/weekly, based on local ingredients. I'd charge 10-12 for a 6" inch sandwich.
- mahmud 11y agoYou are not their target market. They cater to students and working people who eat it everyday, for subsistence. $10-12 for a small sandwich is too expensive, and even those of us who can afford it would rather save our money and, or pack our own homemade sandwiches and salads for <$5.
- Hominem 11y agoYou are right of course. I'm no longer the target market. I Spend most of my time in the bubble of Manhattan or the rapidly gentrifying parts of Brooklyn, where subways seem to be disappearing, replaced with cute little brunch places.
- patio11 11y agoIf you ever decide to execute on Artisanal Sandwich Shop Inc, I highly encourage you to speak to someone with restaurant experience prior to doing so. It seems that everyone has the idea "I know, I'll just move up the price/quality curve from fast food." Chipotle succeeded at that... and they're not in very good company. Briefly, the reality of fast food in America is that that they're sustained by poor people who use them for 10+ meals a week rather than by middle class people who use them for 1~2 meals per month. If you charge a multiple of the fast food pricepoint, you have to locate the store somewhere where you can get high traffic of well-heeled customers. That implies expensive real estate. A lot of stores get broken by it simply being impossible to sell enough $10 foozits to cover the rent necessary to sell a single $10 foozit. Running a restaurant, QSR or otherwise, is by all accounts a brutal business to be in. I think the number usually quoted is 6% margins for the business owner -- i.e. if you sell $1 million in artisanal sandwiches in a year, you make $60k. You will be cutting a lot of bread yourself to earn that.
- hahamrfunnyguy 11y agoSubway's bread is awful, which pretty much kills the sandwich. In my neck of the woods, there's a couple local chains that do subs right and dozens of local mom and pop stands. Subs are one of the harder things to screw up, yet Subway somehow manages to do it and then charges $6 for a tiny sub with soggy bread and flaccid vegetables.
- madengr 11y agoDitto, subway bread is horrible. Jimmy John's is much better.
- whoopdedo 11y agoOn the other hand, JJ's cold cuts are awful. Especially the lettuce. Subway gives me the option of having spinach at least. But no one buys JJs for the food. It's because they deliver at the same price as carry-out. (Not including the tip.)
- Larrikin 11y agoIn my experience, I have never gotten a sandwich I would consider bad at Subway. But I have always felt that I could get a better sub if I went to any other sub shop. A sub that I would consider good. Subway defines mediocrity. Jimmy Johns is still the only sub place I've been to that I've felt was just as bad as Subway. Its almost an accomplishment, the subs taste totally different but equally as mediocre and a place I avoid if I can.
- bbatchelder 11y agoSubway used to be a go-to option for me when I was craving a sandwich. Now, I'd only go there if there was no other option. Far superior options, IMO: * Publix deli subs * Jimmy Johns * Firehouse * Wawa
- toomuchtodo 11y agoFlorida area?
- mpg33 11y agoOne of the bad things about Subway is it is very slow. I have been in lineups at Subway of probably only 4 people and it can be at least 10mins before you get your food. Thats a life time in a "fast food restaurant". If it's busy during lunch...forget it. Also it isn't that cheap if you get a footlong + drink combo. Also with more health conscious people these days and popular diets such as keto and paleo subway isn't that healthy. Your meal is basically 50% (or more) bread.