5 ms·

A personal anecdote: I recently visited my doctor for an annual physical exam. Since my last visit, I adopted a vegan diet void of animal products and proudly a

by noondip 11y ago

A personal anecdote: I recently visited my doctor for an annual physical exam. Since my last visit, I adopted a vegan diet void of animal products and proudly announced I've never felt better, how my skin and mood improved, etc. But to my surprise, the doctor was dismayed. "No bacon?", she cried. I affirmed she wasn't joking, and decided not to question her further. On my way out, she reminded me I should think about eating meat "for protein" - an absurd argument, considering there is no shortage of protein in a proper plant-based diet. The apparent contradiction was confusing. After all, even I know nutrition isn't found in steaks, fish tacos, grilled cheese sandwiches, bacon omelets and glasses of milk. I went home to learn more and found nutrition is regarded as more of 'soft science' in medical education today. Suffice to say, doctors don't have all the answers, or even most of them. Many are presumably ignorant altogether. And if the inane imprisonment, torture, rape, mutilation, and murder of tens of billions of helpless animals every year doesn't make you want to cut out meat from your diet, I recommend looking at the overwhelming evidence pointing out a plant based diet is ideal for human health and the environment. Here is a good starting point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-F8whzJfJY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-F8whzJfJY

jessaustin 11y ago
rape Ummm, maybe I've seen different feedlot videos than you have?
- nitrogen 11y ago
  Maybe the parent was referring to artificial insemination...?
  - jessaustin 11y ago
    Perhaps, but of words to water down into meaninglessness, I think "rape" is a poor choice. We ought not diminish the experiences of actual rape victims. If humans have determined that it's ethical to consume the flesh of an animal, that would seem to imply it's also ethical to perform a veterinary procedure that causes pregnancy on that same animal.
    - stegosaurus 11y ago
      I don't agree with the term choice here, but we haven't determined that it is ethical to consume meat. Generally meat eaters just do it without considering ethics, mmm tasty. Is this bad or good? Dunno. Such philosophy.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
- noondip 11y ago
  How else would you describe the practice of forcing animals to be repeatedly and forcibly impregnated against their wills with long steel devices that shoot semen into their vaginas for the entirety of their insufferable lives?
  - dublinben 11y ago
    "Rape" implies a lack of consent, when there could have been consent. Animals are unable to give consent, so the idea of "rape" is nonsensical.
    - shanusmagnus 11y ago
      What is nonsensical is a definition of consent that denies that animals are able to give it. You know how when you try to do stuff to them, and they run away or attack you or whatever? It's not a subtle message they're sending. At least in most cases. Of course, it's probably important to admit that 95% of Western civilization (and maybe all civilization; and maybe all of humanity) agrees with your perspective on this topic, to my dismay. Edit: although when you consider all relevant issues about the morality of how humans use animals, the ethics of forcefully inseminating them come pretty low on the list, imo.
      - Ollinson 11y ago
        I've raised free range chickens on my small personal farm for years and let me assure you, they don't need to any human intervention to be inspired to procreate. If anyone is committing rape on my farm it's the roosters, not me.
Thriptic 11y ago
> After all, even I know nutrition isn't found in steaks, fish tacos...glasses of milk This statement has no factual basis. Please cite a source for this claim. > there is no shortage of protein in a proper plant based diet. This is probably true, but I would question whether most vegans get enough protein. Have you tracked your nutritional macros? What do your numbers look like? > Many are presumably ignorant alltogether. You extrapolated your take away from a single encounter during which you did not engage the doctor about her opinions to cover the entire medical profession?
- bunderbunder 11y ago
  It's really pretty easy to get enough protein. The typical American consumes 50-100% more protein than the recommended intake, so most of us are working from an incorrect baseline when trying to come up with an intuitive idea of how much protein is needed. And the animal products that vegans don't eat aren't just a big gap in the grocery budget; they need to be replaced with other foodstuffs. Despite common stereotypes that's typically not going to mean mountains of rabbit food because that's a horrendously expensive way to get your calories and it's not very filling either. More likely you'll see staple products like legumes, and those also tend to be relatively high in protein. edit: Curious why the downvote. If someone feels I'm giving really bad nutritional advice here, then it would be MUCH better to provide a response that explains where I'm wrong. A downvote and no reply is pretty useless in this situation; it lets me know someone disagrees but otherwise does everyone else a huge disservice by allowing the bad information to remain unchallenged.
  - Thriptic 11y ago
    > The typical American consumes 50-100% more protein than the recommended intake Show me the data. Most people I see are eating carb heavy diets and not much protein. Until you track your macros over tme, you have no idea if you're eating enough protein each day
    - bunderbunder 11y ago
      Just wanted to point out here that I'm talking population statistics and you're talking anecdotes. As they say, the plural of anecdotes is not data. That said, if you'd like some data how about the CDC? http://nchstats.com/2010/03/03/adults’-daily-protein-intake-much-more-than-recommended/ http://nchstats.com/2010/03/03/adults’-daily-protein-intake-...
bunderbunder 11y ago
> On my way out, she reminded me I should think about eating meat "for protein" That one right there is such a tell about how well-educated many doctors are in nutrition. There are more than enough nutrients that pose a genuine problem for vegetarians, but still the one that's mentioned is one of the ones that generally isn't a problem. That said, a MD or DO speaking about nutrition is technically operating outside their specialty. So maybe one shouldn't expect them to be too sure of what they're talking about. Though I don't know if most folks really understand that, and it's also true that dietitians often get overlooked.
eclipxe 11y ago
What's wrong with bacon, cheese omelettes and milk? Of course there is nutrition found in all of those. I primarily eat a protein/fat based diet and survive on bacon and eggs.
- noondip 11y ago
  It causes unnecessary suffering, enslavement and murder of tens of billions of animals, which are all intelligent living beings with feelings and wills to live; it's simply unethical to be cruel and violent to animals. [1][8] Meat and dairy is filled with junk [2]. Animal protein contributes to the acceleration of osteoporosis [3]. Cutting it out will lower your chance of disease [4]. Humans are herbivores [5]. Modern industrial animal agriculture is a major cause of global warming [6]. Cattle consume 16 times more grain than they produce as meat [7]. The U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat [9]. So, there is plenty wrong with eating the carcass of an animal mutilated in horrific ways. For me, it simply has to do with non-violence. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_KEQb_YVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_KEQb_YVA 2. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html 3. http://pcrm.org/search/?cid=1010 http://pcrm.org/search/?cid=1010 4. http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/A-Very-Low-Fat-Vegan-Diet-Increases.pdf http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/A-Very-Low-... 5. http://www.peta.org/living/food/natural-human-diet/ http://www.peta.org/living/food/natural-human-diet/ 6. http://ecowatch.com/2013/01/21/factory-farming-global-warming/ http://ecowatch.com/2013/01/21/factory-farming-global-warmin... 7. https://books.google.com/books?id=ishlcmQuatoC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ishlcmQuatoC&pg=PA293&lpg=... 8. http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/pigheaded-smart-swine/ http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/pigheaded-smart-swine/ 9. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-80...
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    We treat a lot of animals badly, but uh. We mutilate live and dead plants; that seems on par to me with mutilating dead animals. What's horrific about it? And that peta page is stupid. Unrelated: how do you define will to live?
danmaz74 11y ago
I don't agree with your argument, but wouldn't have downvoted you if you hadn't written "Suffice to say, doctors don't have all the answers, or even most of them. Many are presumably ignorant altogether." Suffice to say, nobody has all the answers. Or you think you do?

by noondip 11y ago

jessaustin 11y ago

rape Ummm, maybe I've seen different feedlot videos than you have?

nitrogen 11y ago
Maybe the parent was referring to artificial insemination...?
- jessaustin 11y ago
  Perhaps, but of words to water down into meaninglessness, I think "rape" is a poor choice. We ought not diminish the experiences of actual rape victims. If humans have determined that it's ethical to consume the flesh of an animal, that would seem to imply it's also ethical to perform a veterinary procedure that causes pregnancy on that same animal.
  - stegosaurus 11y ago
    I don't agree with the term choice here, but we haven't determined that it is ethical to consume meat. Generally meat eaters just do it without considering ethics, mmm tasty. Is this bad or good? Dunno. Such philosophy.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
noondip 11y ago
How else would you describe the practice of forcing animals to be repeatedly and forcibly impregnated against their wills with long steel devices that shoot semen into their vaginas for the entirety of their insufferable lives?
- dublinben 11y ago
  "Rape" implies a lack of consent, when there could have been consent. Animals are unable to give consent, so the idea of "rape" is nonsensical.
  - shanusmagnus 11y ago
    What is nonsensical is a definition of consent that denies that animals are able to give it. You know how when you try to do stuff to them, and they run away or attack you or whatever? It's not a subtle message they're sending. At least in most cases. Of course, it's probably important to admit that 95% of Western civilization (and maybe all civilization; and maybe all of humanity) agrees with your perspective on this topic, to my dismay. Edit: although when you consider all relevant issues about the morality of how humans use animals, the ethics of forcefully inseminating them come pretty low on the list, imo.
    - Ollinson 11y ago
      I've raised free range chickens on my small personal farm for years and let me assure you, they don't need to any human intervention to be inspired to procreate. If anyone is committing rape on my farm it's the roosters, not me.

Thriptic 11y ago

> After all, even I know nutrition isn't found in steaks, fish tacos...glasses of milk This statement has no factual basis. Please cite a source for this claim. > there is no shortage of protein in a proper plant based diet. This is probably true, but I would question whether most vegans get enough protein. Have you tracked your nutritional macros? What do your numbers look like? > Many are presumably ignorant alltogether. You extrapolated your take away from a single encounter during which you did not engage the doctor about her opinions to cover the entire medical profession?

bunderbunder 11y ago
It's really pretty easy to get enough protein. The typical American consumes 50-100% more protein than the recommended intake, so most of us are working from an incorrect baseline when trying to come up with an intuitive idea of how much protein is needed. And the animal products that vegans don't eat aren't just a big gap in the grocery budget; they need to be replaced with other foodstuffs. Despite common stereotypes that's typically not going to mean mountains of rabbit food because that's a horrendously expensive way to get your calories and it's not very filling either. More likely you'll see staple products like legumes, and those also tend to be relatively high in protein. edit: Curious why the downvote. If someone feels I'm giving really bad nutritional advice here, then it would be MUCH better to provide a response that explains where I'm wrong. A downvote and no reply is pretty useless in this situation; it lets me know someone disagrees but otherwise does everyone else a huge disservice by allowing the bad information to remain unchallenged.
- Thriptic 11y ago
  > The typical American consumes 50-100% more protein than the recommended intake Show me the data. Most people I see are eating carb heavy diets and not much protein. Until you track your macros over tme, you have no idea if you're eating enough protein each day
  - bunderbunder 11y ago
    Just wanted to point out here that I'm talking population statistics and you're talking anecdotes. As they say, the plural of anecdotes is not data. That said, if you'd like some data how about the CDC? http://nchstats.com/2010/03/03/adults’-daily-protein-intake-much-more-than-recommended/ http://nchstats.com/2010/03/03/adults’-daily-protein-intake-...

bunderbunder 11y ago

> On my way out, she reminded me I should think about eating meat "for protein" That one right there is such a tell about how well-educated many doctors are in nutrition. There are more than enough nutrients that pose a genuine problem for vegetarians, but still the one that's mentioned is one of the ones that generally isn't a problem. That said, a MD or DO speaking about nutrition is technically operating outside their specialty. So maybe one shouldn't expect them to be too sure of what they're talking about. Though I don't know if most folks really understand that, and it's also true that dietitians often get overlooked.

eclipxe 11y ago

What's wrong with bacon, cheese omelettes and milk? Of course there is nutrition found in all of those. I primarily eat a protein/fat based diet and survive on bacon and eggs.

noondip 11y ago
It causes unnecessary suffering, enslavement and murder of tens of billions of animals, which are all intelligent living beings with feelings and wills to live; it's simply unethical to be cruel and violent to animals. [1][8] Meat and dairy is filled with junk [2]. Animal protein contributes to the acceleration of osteoporosis [3]. Cutting it out will lower your chance of disease [4]. Humans are herbivores [5]. Modern industrial animal agriculture is a major cause of global warming [6]. Cattle consume 16 times more grain than they produce as meat [7]. The U.S. could feed 800 million people with grain that livestock eat [9]. So, there is plenty wrong with eating the carcass of an animal mutilated in horrific ways. For me, it simply has to do with non-violence. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_KEQb_YVA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK_KEQb_YVA 2. http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/12.07/11-dairy.html 3. http://pcrm.org/search/?cid=1010 http://pcrm.org/search/?cid=1010 4. http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/A-Very-Low-Fat-Vegan-Diet-Increases.pdf http://www.ornishspectrum.com/wp-content/uploads/A-Very-Low-... 5. http://www.peta.org/living/food/natural-human-diet/ http://www.peta.org/living/food/natural-human-diet/ 6. http://ecowatch.com/2013/01/21/factory-farming-global-warming/ http://ecowatch.com/2013/01/21/factory-farming-global-warmin... 7. https://books.google.com/books?id=ishlcmQuatoC&pg=PA293&lpg=PA293&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=ishlcmQuatoC&pg=PA293&lpg=... 8. http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/pigheaded-smart-swine/ http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/pigheaded-smart-swine/ 9. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-800-million-people-grain-livestock-eat http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/08/us-could-feed-80...
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  We treat a lot of animals badly, but uh. We mutilate live and dead plants; that seems on par to me with mutilating dead animals. What's horrific about it? And that peta page is stupid. Unrelated: how do you define will to live?

danmaz74 11y ago

I don't agree with your argument, but wouldn't have downvoted you if you hadn't written "Suffice to say, doctors don't have all the answers, or even most of them. Many are presumably ignorant altogether." Suffice to say, nobody has all the answers. Or you think you do?