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>> Note that the decoupling correlates closely with the computerization of society/business around the mid-1980s. It also correlates closely with the decline o

>> Note that the decoupling correlates closely with the computerization of society/business around the mid-1980s. It also correlates closely with the decline of labor unions.

forgotAgain 11y ago
Agreed. In the 80's Reagan fired the striking air traffic controllers. It was the start of society's war against unions. The US was very strange at the time in that most people viewed themselves as upper middle class. Of course they weren't but the idea let many people look down on union members as an undeserving underclass. That in turn was used by capital owners to create support for legislation outlawing activities by upstart union members against the more deserving mid and upper classes.
- kasey_junk 11y ago
  Some part of society has been at "war" against unions since their beginnings. To call the Reagan air traffic controller strike the start is bizarre.
  - forgotAgain 11y ago
    To call the Reagan air traffic controller strike the start is bizarre. Not at all. Bizarre is the need to immediately jump to such invective.
    - kasey_junk 11y ago
      The US government deployed armed federal forces to literally kill union strikers at privately held companies nearly 80 years before Reagan used his executive powers to fire federal employees. I stand by the phrase bizarre.
      - forgotAgain 11y ago
        After WW II unions became a pathway for millions to enter the middle class. It was Reagan who changed that back to the pre-war situation. Speaking with disdain doesn't make your position any stronger or more correct.
        kasey_junk 11y ago
        I didn't disdain your position. I thought it was odd, strange, maybe to the point of amusing as it seemed to use a particular word "war" that was a much more apt description of the state of societies interaction with unions many years before your supposed "start". You've already revised your position, to one that I think is still overly broad and simplistic, but one that I think is common and thus not bizarre. If I were to describe my thoughts on the particular point in history its that Reagan's action was an effect of the decline of labor unions, that occurred because in many ways they had accomplished a lot of their stated and most approachable goals. The only reason he could get away with it was because the unions had lost so much of their sway. They didn't lose their sway because he fired striking workers. You also see that it was not confined to the US as Thatcher was doing similar things in the UK.
        AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        From an outside observer to this conversation, you (forgotAgain) are speaking with much more disdain than kasey_junk is.
rhino369 11y ago
The decline of labor unions are the symptom. Unionized jobs were exported now that the world was safe for global trade.
- gaius 11y ago
  Bingo. The deal the unions negotiated in Detroit could only work when there was nowhere else to get cars. It especially couldn't work when Japanese cars were both cheaper and better.
Kalium 11y ago
Hi. I'm a software engineer. Show me a union whose membership improves my life, and I'll be happy to talk. Bear in mind that improves is present-tense for a reason.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  > Hi. I'm a software engineer. Show me a union whose membership improves my life, and I'll be happy to talk. Want to join the Industrial Workers of the World?
  - phkahler 11y ago
    You seem to have missed the the "show me" part.
  - Kalium 11y ago
    In what way in joining the Wobblies going to improve my life?
- bkeroack 11y ago
  We don't need a union per se, but a professional association (aka guild) would be fantastic. As professionals we need to stop letting employers be the sole arbiter of competency, and we also need to institute a code of engineering ethics that is independent and based on sound theory and practice (rather than whatever the business wants at any given time). Imagine being SEOA (Software Engineer Association of America) Level 1 certified and never having to do Fizz Buzz at an interview again. Or a Glassdoor-like employer database that gives you a clue what you might be walking into. Independent health insurance coverage, etc. There could be lots of great ways it would improve the average engineer's life.
  - kasey_junk 11y ago
    Also imagine not being able to get a job because you tried to implement some new and cutting edge process or program and were black balled for life. That's also what guilds do.
  - 11y ago

>> Note that the decoupling correlates closely with the computerization of society/business around the mid-1980s. It also correlates closely with the decline of labor unions.

forgotAgain 11y ago

Agreed. In the 80's Reagan fired the striking air traffic controllers. It was the start of society's war against unions. The US was very strange at the time in that most people viewed themselves as upper middle class. Of course they weren't but the idea let many people look down on union members as an undeserving underclass. That in turn was used by capital owners to create support for legislation outlawing activities by upstart union members against the more deserving mid and upper classes.

kasey_junk 11y ago
Some part of society has been at "war" against unions since their beginnings. To call the Reagan air traffic controller strike the start is bizarre.
- forgotAgain 11y ago
  To call the Reagan air traffic controller strike the start is bizarre. Not at all. Bizarre is the need to immediately jump to such invective.
  - kasey_junk 11y ago
    The US government deployed armed federal forces to literally kill union strikers at privately held companies nearly 80 years before Reagan used his executive powers to fire federal employees. I stand by the phrase bizarre.
    - forgotAgain 11y ago
      After WW II unions became a pathway for millions to enter the middle class. It was Reagan who changed that back to the pre-war situation. Speaking with disdain doesn't make your position any stronger or more correct.
      - kasey_junk 11y ago
        I didn't disdain your position. I thought it was odd, strange, maybe to the point of amusing as it seemed to use a particular word "war" that was a much more apt description of the state of societies interaction with unions many years before your supposed "start". You've already revised your position, to one that I think is still overly broad and simplistic, but one that I think is common and thus not bizarre. If I were to describe my thoughts on the particular point in history its that Reagan's action was an effect of the decline of labor unions, that occurred because in many ways they had accomplished a lot of their stated and most approachable goals. The only reason he could get away with it was because the unions had lost so much of their sway. They didn't lose their sway because he fired striking workers. You also see that it was not confined to the US as Thatcher was doing similar things in the UK.
      - AnimalMuppet 11y ago
        From an outside observer to this conversation, you (forgotAgain) are speaking with much more disdain than kasey_junk is.

rhino369 11y ago

The decline of labor unions are the symptom. Unionized jobs were exported now that the world was safe for global trade.

gaius 11y ago
Bingo. The deal the unions negotiated in Detroit could only work when there was nowhere else to get cars. It especially couldn't work when Japanese cars were both cheaper and better.

Kalium 11y ago

Hi. I'm a software engineer. Show me a union whose membership improves my life, and I'll be happy to talk. Bear in mind that improves is present-tense for a reason.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
> Hi. I'm a software engineer. Show me a union whose membership improves my life, and I'll be happy to talk. Want to join the Industrial Workers of the World?
- phkahler 11y ago
  You seem to have missed the the "show me" part.
- Kalium 11y ago
  In what way in joining the Wobblies going to improve my life?
bkeroack 11y ago
We don't need a union per se, but a professional association (aka guild) would be fantastic. As professionals we need to stop letting employers be the sole arbiter of competency, and we also need to institute a code of engineering ethics that is independent and based on sound theory and practice (rather than whatever the business wants at any given time). Imagine being SEOA (Software Engineer Association of America) Level 1 certified and never having to do Fizz Buzz at an interview again. Or a Glassdoor-like employer database that gives you a clue what you might be walking into. Independent health insurance coverage, etc. There could be lots of great ways it would improve the average engineer's life.
- kasey_junk 11y ago
  Also imagine not being able to get a job because you tried to implement some new and cutting edge process or program and were black balled for life. That's also what guilds do.
- 11y ago