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So here's my takeaway from the article: concious thought is the evolutionary advantage of being able to modify our own subconscious thoughts. The simple fact th

So here's my takeaway from the article: concious thought is the evolutionary advantage of being able to modify our own subconscious thoughts. The simple fact that we are aware of our subconscious gives us the profound ability to actually change it - nothing else seems to be able to do this. An earthworm can't suddenly realize that all its day-to-day routines exist in a tangible sense and make an effort to change those. A dog can't do this, apes can't do this. They might exhibit strangely human behaviours sometimes because their subconscious can get quiet advanced, but they still can't change it, they have no control over it. When you think of it in those terms, that our concious thought is just this thin veneer that sits on top of our unconscious thoughts (which might make up more of our day to day choices than we expect), it's kinda creepy. Could we meet someone who seems human in nearly every way, but they have no awareness of their subconscious? Would that person be a concious being?

namlem 11y ago
FWIW, humans usually have a very difficult time changing their habits and routines too. I think if you could observe humans in an unbiased way, you'd rarely see these types of changes. I think it's unfair to assume that chimps and dolphins have no ability to influence their subconscious at all. They might, or they might not, but we certainly don't know for sure.
nwatson 11y ago
For an ancient text dealing with the question of self-control and consciousness, look at a point before the story of the first murder in the pentateuch, where God talks to Cain about his state-of-mind before Cain murders Abel: Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” This text was composed into its current long after the mythical-or-real Cain existed, and probably written down only centuries after that. The original composition likely was before the 3K-years-ago dawn-of-consciousness that Jaynes stipulates. The interesting thing about the passage is: * there's still an either-real-or-self-manufactured deity involved * Cain struggles in an apparent self-aware way with jealousy and rage * he's explicitly aware of the need to modify his perception * there's still a "bicameral mind" but it's integrated into consciousness From either Cain's perspective, the author's perspective, or the ancient reader/hearer's perspective, I think this passage is fascinating.
- Ollinson 11y ago
  I'm sure Jaynes would have made the same argument against your example that he did when others told him about examples of consciousness in The Iliad, "they are later additions or mistranslations." A pretty convenient and unconvincing argument on his part.
bweitzman 11y ago
What does it even mean to modify a subconscious thought? The notion of a subconscious thought is contradictory. I am increasingly drawn to the idea that there is no difference between the so called conscious and subconscious mind. It seems more natural for me to think that experience literally is processing millions of tiny things at the same time. The idea is still muddy but the concept of a level of abstraction observing itself seems very compelling to me. Douglas Hofstadter explores this concept in his book "I Am a Strange Loop".
- alchemism 11y ago
  If I offered you bites of savoury meat, and halfway through the meal announced that you were eating my beloved horse (or dog...) would you get nausious? A visceral reaction caused by cultural programming (e.g. taboos against consuming the flesh of certain animals) is a great example of subconscious thought.
  - bweitzman 11y ago
    I'm not sure I agree, it seems like more the absence of any thought is replaced by an unpleasant thought. It's not as if our subconscious is constantly churning unbeknownst to us over how the meat that we are eating is non horse meat.
    - MacsHeadroom 11y ago
      >It's not as if our subconscious is constantly churning unbeknownst to us over how the meat that we are eating is non horse meat. Actually, that is exactly what your subconscious does. You are literally thinking vocal thoughts to yourself constantly. You could be having a conversation at the dinner table while your subconscious mind vocally (internally) remarks about the colour of someone's tie and the taste of the meat you're eating all at the same time. You don't usually hear these thoughts or realize that you're thinking them. Through meditation anyone can come to hear the actual vocal versions of these subconscious streams of thought. Psychotropic drugs can help too.
api 11y ago
Read Blindsight by Peter Watts. Also one of the best hard Sci-fi books I've ever read, both for its ideas and writing quality.
jes5199 11y ago
What you're saying sounds a lot like the thesis in this paper: "Conscious Thought Is for Facilitating Social and Cultural Interactions: How Mental Simulations Serve the Animal–Culture Interface" http://users.wfu.edu/masicaej/BaumeisterMasicampo2010PsychRev.pdf http://users.wfu.edu/masicaej/BaumeisterMasicampo2010PsychRe...
KingMob 11y ago
What you're describing is the philosophical zombie (as opposed to the flesh-eating kind) and is a widespread conundrum in philosophy of consciousness. I.e., could there be an entity that appeared human to all outsiders, but had no internal experiences?

namlem 11y ago

FWIW, humans usually have a very difficult time changing their habits and routines too. I think if you could observe humans in an unbiased way, you'd rarely see these types of changes. I think it's unfair to assume that chimps and dolphins have no ability to influence their subconscious at all. They might, or they might not, but we certainly don't know for sure.

nwatson 11y ago

For an ancient text dealing with the question of self-control and consciousness, look at a point before the story of the first murder in the pentateuch, where God talks to Cain about his state-of-mind before Cain murders Abel: Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” This text was composed into its current long after the mythical-or-real Cain existed, and probably written down only centuries after that. The original composition likely was before the 3K-years-ago dawn-of-consciousness that Jaynes stipulates. The interesting thing about the passage is: * there's still an either-real-or-self-manufactured deity involved * Cain struggles in an apparent self-aware way with jealousy and rage * he's explicitly aware of the need to modify his perception * there's still a "bicameral mind" but it's integrated into consciousness From either Cain's perspective, the author's perspective, or the ancient reader/hearer's perspective, I think this passage is fascinating.

Ollinson 11y ago
I'm sure Jaynes would have made the same argument against your example that he did when others told him about examples of consciousness in The Iliad, "they are later additions or mistranslations." A pretty convenient and unconvincing argument on his part.

bweitzman 11y ago

What does it even mean to modify a subconscious thought? The notion of a subconscious thought is contradictory. I am increasingly drawn to the idea that there is no difference between the so called conscious and subconscious mind. It seems more natural for me to think that experience literally is processing millions of tiny things at the same time. The idea is still muddy but the concept of a level of abstraction observing itself seems very compelling to me. Douglas Hofstadter explores this concept in his book "I Am a Strange Loop".

alchemism 11y ago
If I offered you bites of savoury meat, and halfway through the meal announced that you were eating my beloved horse (or dog...) would you get nausious? A visceral reaction caused by cultural programming (e.g. taboos against consuming the flesh of certain animals) is a great example of subconscious thought.
- bweitzman 11y ago
  I'm not sure I agree, it seems like more the absence of any thought is replaced by an unpleasant thought. It's not as if our subconscious is constantly churning unbeknownst to us over how the meat that we are eating is non horse meat.
  - MacsHeadroom 11y ago
    >It's not as if our subconscious is constantly churning unbeknownst to us over how the meat that we are eating is non horse meat. Actually, that is exactly what your subconscious does. You are literally thinking vocal thoughts to yourself constantly. You could be having a conversation at the dinner table while your subconscious mind vocally (internally) remarks about the colour of someone's tie and the taste of the meat you're eating all at the same time. You don't usually hear these thoughts or realize that you're thinking them. Through meditation anyone can come to hear the actual vocal versions of these subconscious streams of thought. Psychotropic drugs can help too.

api 11y ago

Read Blindsight by Peter Watts. Also one of the best hard Sci-fi books I've ever read, both for its ideas and writing quality.

jes5199 11y ago

What you're saying sounds a lot like the thesis in this paper: "Conscious Thought Is for Facilitating Social and Cultural Interactions: How Mental Simulations Serve the Animal–Culture Interface" http://users.wfu.edu/masicaej/BaumeisterMasicampo2010PsychRev.pdf http://users.wfu.edu/masicaej/BaumeisterMasicampo2010PsychRe...

KingMob 11y ago

What you're describing is the philosophical zombie (as opposed to the flesh-eating kind) and is a widespread conundrum in philosophy of consciousness. I.e., could there be an entity that appeared human to all outsiders, but had no internal experiences?