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tl;dr: People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. Sales dropped so much that

tl;dr: People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. Sales dropped so much that vaccine manufacturers became reluctant to market the vaccine to humans. Similar irrational fears prompted the development of the "acellular" version of the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine, which is less effective than the previously used version of the vaccine. Pertussis is a serious illness, and now that many people refuse to use the vaccine, and even the people who use it can only get a type of vaccine that is less effective than the first vaccine,[1] the whole population is needlessly at risk for pertussis outbreaks. [1] http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/05/15/peds.2012-3836.abstract http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2013/05/... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423127 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22423127

ars 11y ago
> Similar irrational fears prompted the development of the "acellular" version of the pertussis Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children. The the new version is not as effective, that's true, but people refused the old version, and rightly so - the side effects were much worse. So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far fewer people are willing to take it? And on top of that since DTP was given as a unit, people refused the D and T parts as well (the Dr. may or may not have had it separately, but people weren't always so aware that the reactions were from the P, so refused the whole thing).
- 3am 11y ago
  "Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children." Simply not true. You can easily find my citations (including CDC). Please provide yours. "So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far fewer people are willing to take it?" The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot. This is like suggesting we take away seat belts because some people believe they'll trap them in a burning vehicle.
  - ars 11y ago
    > The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot The risk from Pertussis TODAY is greater than that of DTaP. But when aP was first introduced the risk of pertussis was LOWER than the risk of the Pertussis vaccine, for the simple reason that Pertussis was almost unheard of, but bad reactions to the Pertussis vaccine were quite common. There's a reason they switched to aP you know, it wasn't in order to weaken the vaccine.
    - bsder 11y ago
      He asked for data and citation. Your claims should be easily documentable since companies did switch and presumably did so for a reason. So, provide the citation or shut up.
      - feybay 11y ago
        Why do you guys get so angry at anything vaguely anti-any vaccine?
        bsder 11y ago
        Why do anti-vaccine people get so upset when told to produce factual evidence? The problem is that anti-vaccine sentiment is NOT harmless. Anti-vaccine sentiment means we now have diseases killing children that were effectively eradicated 20 years ago. Anti-vaccine sentiment means that we don't have a Lyme disease vaccination because the cost of fighting anti-vaxxers exceeds the profit from selling the vaccine. So, if we look at the balance, anti-vaccination causes real, demonstrable problems while pro-vaccination has yet to have any demonstrated factual downside. So, yeah, we now have preventable diseases running amok because the logical community was tolerant about anti-vaccination instead of stomping the anti-vaxxers into the ground like they so richly deserved. Now does the vitriol make sense?
        feybay 11y ago
        The attitude seems a bit out of place but I understand your position more now. Thank you.
phkahler 11y ago
>> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. No, people who actually got the vaccine claimed they got arthritis from it. Weather those claims are true or not remains unverified. Of course the clinical trials showed no such side effects, but I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to hide that?). So when mass-marketed, alleged issues showed up and they pulled it. This is not different from other drugs that were pulled - and turned out to have actual problems. The fact that vaccine makers are legally protected and they still pulled it says a lot here. That said, TFA says the anti-vaxers are ready to attack any new lyme vaccine that may come along, and that's unfortunate.
- adrr 11y ago
  Curios on the subject. How would a vaccine cause arthritis? I assume they are injecting you with a protein so the body produces antibodies. Could the antibodies/immune response cause arthritis?
  - voidlogic 11y ago
    > Could the antibodies/immune response cause arthritis? A lot of peoples arthritis is auto-immune.
  - ghaff 11y ago
    Lyme disease can cause a type of arthritis and it was hypothesized that the vaccine might result in a similar autoimmune response in certain genetically-disposed individuals. There are many more details about Lymerix and what happened here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ [EDIT: Just to be clear though, there was no evidence in the numbers that the vaccine in fact caused arthritis.]
- maxerickson 11y ago
  So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? The FDA and CDC investigated and did not find reason to believe that the vaccine caused arthritis, but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants? Come on.
soneca 11y ago
> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. If you say yourself that the harms were only "probably not caused by the vaccines"; implying that they might be caused; how can you affirm that the fears are irrational?

ars 11y ago

> Similar irrational fears prompted the development of the "acellular" version of the pertussis Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children. The the new version is not as effective, that's true, but people refused the old version, and rightly so - the side effects were much worse. So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far fewer people are willing to take it? And on top of that since DTP was given as a unit, people refused the D and T parts as well (the Dr. may or may not have had it separately, but people weren't always so aware that the reactions were from the P, so refused the whole thing).

3am 11y ago
"Those fears were not in the slightest irrational. People had really really bad reactions to the regular pertussis to the point that people routinely advised new parents not to get it for their children." Simply not true. You can easily find my citations (including CDC). Please provide yours. "So what's better a vaccine that doesn't work as well, that people are willing to take? Or a vaccine that works well, but far fewer people are willing to take it?" The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot. This is like suggesting we take away seat belts because some people believe they'll trap them in a burning vehicle.
- ars 11y ago
  > The risk from Pertussis is greater than that of DTAP by a lot The risk from Pertussis TODAY is greater than that of DTaP. But when aP was first introduced the risk of pertussis was LOWER than the risk of the Pertussis vaccine, for the simple reason that Pertussis was almost unheard of, but bad reactions to the Pertussis vaccine were quite common. There's a reason they switched to aP you know, it wasn't in order to weaken the vaccine.
  - bsder 11y ago
    He asked for data and citation. Your claims should be easily documentable since companies did switch and presumably did so for a reason. So, provide the citation or shut up.
    - feybay 11y ago
      Why do you guys get so angry at anything vaguely anti-any vaccine?
      - bsder 11y ago
        Why do anti-vaccine people get so upset when told to produce factual evidence? The problem is that anti-vaccine sentiment is NOT harmless. Anti-vaccine sentiment means we now have diseases killing children that were effectively eradicated 20 years ago. Anti-vaccine sentiment means that we don't have a Lyme disease vaccination because the cost of fighting anti-vaxxers exceeds the profit from selling the vaccine. So, if we look at the balance, anti-vaccination causes real, demonstrable problems while pro-vaccination has yet to have any demonstrated factual downside. So, yeah, we now have preventable diseases running amok because the logical community was tolerant about anti-vaccination instead of stomping the anti-vaxxers into the ground like they so richly deserved. Now does the vitriol make sense?
        feybay 11y ago
        The attitude seems a bit out of place but I understand your position more now. Thank you.

phkahler 11y ago

>> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. No, people who actually got the vaccine claimed they got arthritis from it. Weather those claims are true or not remains unverified. Of course the clinical trials showed no such side effects, but I doubt they were even looking for that (if I'm really cynical, do you even trust them not to hide that?). So when mass-marketed, alleged issues showed up and they pulled it. This is not different from other drugs that were pulled - and turned out to have actual problems. The fact that vaccine makers are legally protected and they still pulled it says a lot here. That said, TFA says the anti-vaxers are ready to attack any new lyme vaccine that may come along, and that's unfortunate.

adrr 11y ago
Curios on the subject. How would a vaccine cause arthritis? I assume they are injecting you with a protein so the body produces antibodies. Could the antibodies/immune response cause arthritis?
- voidlogic 11y ago
  > Could the antibodies/immune response cause arthritis? A lot of peoples arthritis is auto-immune.
- ghaff 11y ago
  Lyme disease can cause a type of arthritis and it was hypothesized that the vaccine might result in a similar autoimmune response in certain genetically-disposed individuals. There are many more details about Lymerix and what happened here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ [EDIT: Just to be clear though, there was no evidence in the numbers that the vaccine in fact caused arthritis.]
maxerickson 11y ago
So if the trial was not corrupt then it must have been incompetent? The FDA and CDC investigated and did not find reason to believe that the vaccine caused arthritis, but the unnamed people who reported the arthritis are more believable than all those public servants? Come on.

soneca 11y ago

> People who had irrational fears of vaccines claimed harms from the Lyme vaccine that probably were not caused by the vaccine. If you say yourself that the harms were only "probably not caused by the vaccines"; implying that they might be caused; how can you affirm that the fears are irrational?