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>Do you think he is a liar and if so what do you think he is lying about and why? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. While I don't agree wit

>Do you think he is a liar and if so what do you think he is lying about and why? I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. While I don't agree with user=irrigation's comments, I think he's been pretty clear: the claims don't jibe with his experience as a consultant and he's skeptical about the self-promotional aspects. It's hardly ambiguous. So why are you demanding he come out and call patio11 a liar? That would be an asshole move. Instead he's saying "I don't believe it", and there isn't anything inherently wrong with that. We're all just "some guy" on the internet, who cares?

kasey_junk 11y ago
He hasn't come out and said I don't believe it (or hadn't as I wrote these comments). He's insinuated that it isn't believable, or that patio11 is lying, but he hasn't just made the claim. That's what I'm hoping he will say instead of insinuation about a specific person. 1) make a claim. 2) put some counter claims along with it ("I've been doing consulting for X years and never seen a charge rate greater than Y") 3) and if necessary point out what it would take to change the position. You are right though, I probably shouldn't care, but I really dislike the behavior in this case. It seems like simple trolling trying to hide behind dissent. Which is a disservice to all of us.
- irrigation 11y ago
  It seems like simple trolling trying to hide behind dissent And every one of your posts comes off as simple shilling. Interesting how that goes, isn't it?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    'kasey_junk too, now! Who else is part of the Patrick-Industrial Complex on HN?
    - irrigation 11y ago
      Another clever tptacek rejoinder. If being skeptical makes one a troll, then in such a world of extremes, believing must make you a shill. In the world of polarized extremes it is the only option.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Dividing the world into "shills" and "skeptics" doesn't seem like a pleasant way to live. At any rate, it's no way to participate in a community, and you should (again) stop doing it.
        irrigation 11y ago
        I was clearly referring to a world where being skeptical makes one a troll. Yet again you've given a contrived, useless reply that completely misses the point or the context of the discussion, all so you can stand and triumphantly herald your great conquest. That is, I have learned, your thing, and a lot of people don't pay enough attention that you can get away with it. and you should (again) stop doing it. You should stop using Hacker News as your personal sales vehicle. This site and its community don't exist in the service of you.
        tptacek 11y ago
        You've now written over 2,700 words today arguing about a stranger who in your view might a liar, but might not be. Other people on this thread continue to take you seriously, and answer your weird accusations in good faith. I won't. You're a troll.
        irrigation 11y ago
        However much you might try to simplify this whole discussion for your weak attempts at clever retorts (that are never actually clever, though you seem to be convinced that they are), the root discussion was about those who preach success versus achieved actual success. There is often (if not usually) a disconnect. It's a pretty important subject. The best part was when you comically claimed that I should be quiet about not charging $40K/week because somehow this made me a failure, which is so....utterly juvenile. I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't taken over your account. You're a troll. You are one the worst trolls on HN, and have been for years. You seldom address comments, instead resorting to comical misreads or misrepresentations (and if it doesn't get the immediate reaction from your adoring fanclub who've bought your weak gimmick, you edit until you do), in a way that almost always somehow ends up serving your own use of HN as a sales vehicle. 95% of your contributions have been snarky, completely disposable garbage replies.
    - edanm 11y ago
      I am as well. Funny how so many people with verifiable backgrounds, who are clearly not related to Patrick except through HN, vouch for him, yet we are apparently "shills". Not sure what needs to happen for us to not be taken that way.
  - kasey_junk 11y ago
    I'll fully disclose my interactions with patio11. I've met him once, at a hacker news meetup. I've exchanged 7 emails with him, regarding a phone call he wanted to have with me, about something that is in one of my areas of expertise. We had said phone call that lasted around 1 hour. He asked me questions, I answered them. No money was exchanged (nor expected) and no quid pro quo's expected. Originally, it was meant to be lunch, but that didn't fit in our schedules. This happened in the last month. Prior to that I had no interactions with him outside of his blog and hacker news. I've been following his blog for a very long time (in fact his blog introduced me to hacker news, not vice versa). I still read his blog via RSS but do not listen to his podcast or subscribe to his newsletter as the topics covered are largely outside of my interests. I believe Patrick, not because I've met him in the last month, but because his writing is compelling, the things I can verify are truthful, and the things I cannot match my other experiences. If I had any complaint about his post about money its that he is assuming that his readership understand implicitly concepts such as fully-loaded employee costs, bill rate vs utilization rate and bill rate in comparison to costs of delivery. I think that is largely untrue and he would have been better served with a summary paragraph describing appropriate ways to compare bill rate to employee take home pay. None of that has anything to do with this particular post, which as I've mentioned, only adds to Patrick's credibility as it is an outside entity stating that the numbers, at least with regard to BCC, are truthful.

kasey_junk 11y ago

He hasn't come out and said I don't believe it (or hadn't as I wrote these comments). He's insinuated that it isn't believable, or that patio11 is lying, but he hasn't just made the claim. That's what I'm hoping he will say instead of insinuation about a specific person. 1) make a claim. 2) put some counter claims along with it ("I've been doing consulting for X years and never seen a charge rate greater than Y") 3) and if necessary point out what it would take to change the position. You are right though, I probably shouldn't care, but I really dislike the behavior in this case. It seems like simple trolling trying to hide behind dissent. Which is a disservice to all of us.

irrigation 11y ago
It seems like simple trolling trying to hide behind dissent And every one of your posts comes off as simple shilling. Interesting how that goes, isn't it?
- tptacek 11y ago
  'kasey_junk too, now! Who else is part of the Patrick-Industrial Complex on HN?
  - irrigation 11y ago
    Another clever tptacek rejoinder. If being skeptical makes one a troll, then in such a world of extremes, believing must make you a shill. In the world of polarized extremes it is the only option.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Dividing the world into "shills" and "skeptics" doesn't seem like a pleasant way to live. At any rate, it's no way to participate in a community, and you should (again) stop doing it.
      - irrigation 11y ago
        I was clearly referring to a world where being skeptical makes one a troll. Yet again you've given a contrived, useless reply that completely misses the point or the context of the discussion, all so you can stand and triumphantly herald your great conquest. That is, I have learned, your thing, and a lot of people don't pay enough attention that you can get away with it. and you should (again) stop doing it. You should stop using Hacker News as your personal sales vehicle. This site and its community don't exist in the service of you.
        tptacek 11y ago
        You've now written over 2,700 words today arguing about a stranger who in your view might a liar, but might not be. Other people on this thread continue to take you seriously, and answer your weird accusations in good faith. I won't. You're a troll.
        irrigation 11y ago
        However much you might try to simplify this whole discussion for your weak attempts at clever retorts (that are never actually clever, though you seem to be convinced that they are), the root discussion was about those who preach success versus achieved actual success. There is often (if not usually) a disconnect. It's a pretty important subject. The best part was when you comically claimed that I should be quiet about not charging $40K/week because somehow this made me a failure, which is so....utterly juvenile. I find it hard to believe that someone hasn't taken over your account. You're a troll. You are one the worst trolls on HN, and have been for years. You seldom address comments, instead resorting to comical misreads or misrepresentations (and if it doesn't get the immediate reaction from your adoring fanclub who've bought your weak gimmick, you edit until you do), in a way that almost always somehow ends up serving your own use of HN as a sales vehicle. 95% of your contributions have been snarky, completely disposable garbage replies.
  - edanm 11y ago
    I am as well. Funny how so many people with verifiable backgrounds, who are clearly not related to Patrick except through HN, vouch for him, yet we are apparently "shills". Not sure what needs to happen for us to not be taken that way.
- kasey_junk 11y ago
  I'll fully disclose my interactions with patio11. I've met him once, at a hacker news meetup. I've exchanged 7 emails with him, regarding a phone call he wanted to have with me, about something that is in one of my areas of expertise. We had said phone call that lasted around 1 hour. He asked me questions, I answered them. No money was exchanged (nor expected) and no quid pro quo's expected. Originally, it was meant to be lunch, but that didn't fit in our schedules. This happened in the last month. Prior to that I had no interactions with him outside of his blog and hacker news. I've been following his blog for a very long time (in fact his blog introduced me to hacker news, not vice versa). I still read his blog via RSS but do not listen to his podcast or subscribe to his newsletter as the topics covered are largely outside of my interests. I believe Patrick, not because I've met him in the last month, but because his writing is compelling, the things I can verify are truthful, and the things I cannot match my other experiences. If I had any complaint about his post about money its that he is assuming that his readership understand implicitly concepts such as fully-loaded employee costs, bill rate vs utilization rate and bill rate in comparison to costs of delivery. I think that is largely untrue and he would have been better served with a summary paragraph describing appropriate ways to compare bill rate to employee take home pay. None of that has anything to do with this particular post, which as I've mentioned, only adds to Patrick's credibility as it is an outside entity stating that the numbers, at least with regard to BCC, are truthful.