5 ms·

Oh ok, well then I guess it's just Google's fault.

by kyllo 11y ago

vdaniuk 11y ago
It's Google fault as in a mistake, a defect, an offense that they've created a popular js framework? Is that a correct interpretation of your words?
- kyllo 11y ago
  Only if you feel that Angular itself was a mistake. I do, primarily because it's yet another attempt in a long history of misguided attempts to bestow Turing completeness on XML.
  - vdaniuk 11y ago
    I don't. If Angular has produced a local optima of efficiency in the range of "misguided attempts" then it's effect on the development ecosystem was a net positive. That said, I am extremely concerned that most popular frameworks/libraries are products of megacorps.
    - Bahamut 11y ago
      That is in part due to the complexity of problems in frontend and that most companies don't need to solve those problems (or don't have the resources to solve them).
      - vdaniuk 11y ago
        Ember would be a notable counter-example. I think a more important reason would be that Facebook/Microsoft/Google media influence and corporate support creates massive brand awareness and generates instant interest. Educational projects anticipate the interest from developers and create courses, tutorials and reviews. The cycle continues and bam! we have an information cascade[0]. Rich get richer and poorer get poorer (in developer mindshare). Megacorps reap the benefits while indie developers are not able to achieve critical mass. I shudder when I think about the possible Typescript/Microsoft, Angular/Google, React/Facebook domination in web technologies. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade
    - sitkack 11y ago
      I think that has more to do with developer evangelists/pr people and budgets. Most good ideas languish in obscurity, even when given the light of day.
  - alexc05 11y ago
    Not at all! Honestly there are some WONDERFUL things about angular. There are some bad ones too. - Polling for changes vs. event driven - two way data bindings causing infinite redraw loops. - "feels like O(n^2)" performance on ng-repeats / large pages but things like the templating, directives, data-binding... they are all really good things. And dependency injection! They have really moved the needle forward on client side testing. No angular in itself is not a mistake at all. There are mistakes without question. I suspect the angular 2.0 release will address many of the major criticisms. Though, I haven't read much about it yet.
    - kyllo 11y ago
      ng-if, ng-switch, ng-repeat? There's already a language in the browser that does these things, it's called JavaScript. Why do you even need dependency injection and singleton services and factories in a dynamic language with closures and first-class functions? You don't. Client-side testing works fine without DI. Angular is just a way to do Java in JavaScript. It's a pile of unnecessary complexity designed to sell to enterprises that love over-designed Java projects and want to make client-side development feel more similar to what they know. In that regard I suppose Angular is a little better than Google Web Toolkit, but that isn't saying much.
      - andybak 11y ago
        > ng-if, ng-switch, ng-repeat? There's already a language in the browser that does these things, it's called JavaScript. It's nice to have a largely declarative way to specify markup but still allow simple loops and conditionals. Hasn't every template language in the world has come to a similar conclusion?
        jarrettc 11y ago
        > Hasn't every template language in the world has come to a similar conclusion? No, not even every mainstream template language. For example, I still use ERB and EJS extensively, and so do many other engineers. ERB and EJS use the control flow constructs of the underlying languages (Ruby and JS, respectively). There is of course debate about whether templates should expose the full power of a programming language. I have tried templating languages that do and ones that don't. For now, I'm sticking with templates that let me mix in arbitrary code as I see fit. Could I abuse that power and make a mess? Absolutely. But I try not to, and my code stays pretty maintainable.
  - debaserab2 11y ago
    I can make functional prototypes very, very quickly with angular. There are things it does not do well, in my opinion, but it has given me a tool that previously didn't exist in the JS world. I don't care about the turing completeness of angular.

Oh ok, well then I guess it's just Google's fault.

by kyllo 11y ago

Oh ok, well then I guess it's just Google's fault.

It's Google fault as in a mistake, a defect, an offense that they've created a popular js framework? Is that a correct interpretation of your words?

kyllo 11y ago
Only if you feel that Angular itself was a mistake. I do, primarily because it's yet another attempt in a long history of misguided attempts to bestow Turing completeness on XML.
- vdaniuk 11y ago
  I don't. If Angular has produced a local optima of efficiency in the range of "misguided attempts" then it's effect on the development ecosystem was a net positive. That said, I am extremely concerned that most popular frameworks/libraries are products of megacorps.
  - Bahamut 11y ago
    That is in part due to the complexity of problems in frontend and that most companies don't need to solve those problems (or don't have the resources to solve them).
    - vdaniuk 11y ago
      Ember would be a notable counter-example. I think a more important reason would be that Facebook/Microsoft/Google media influence and corporate support creates massive brand awareness and generates instant interest. Educational projects anticipate the interest from developers and create courses, tutorials and reviews. The cycle continues and bam! we have an information cascade[0]. Rich get richer and poorer get poorer (in developer mindshare). Megacorps reap the benefits while indie developers are not able to achieve critical mass. I shudder when I think about the possible Typescript/Microsoft, Angular/Google, React/Facebook domination in web technologies. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade
  - sitkack 11y ago
    I think that has more to do with developer evangelists/pr people and budgets. Most good ideas languish in obscurity, even when given the light of day.
- alexc05 11y ago
  Not at all! Honestly there are some WONDERFUL things about angular. There are some bad ones too. - Polling for changes vs. event driven - two way data bindings causing infinite redraw loops. - "feels like O(n^2)" performance on ng-repeats / large pages but things like the templating, directives, data-binding... they are all really good things. And dependency injection! They have really moved the needle forward on client side testing. No angular in itself is not a mistake at all. There are mistakes without question. I suspect the angular 2.0 release will address many of the major criticisms. Though, I haven't read much about it yet.
  - kyllo 11y ago
    ng-if, ng-switch, ng-repeat? There's already a language in the browser that does these things, it's called JavaScript. Why do you even need dependency injection and singleton services and factories in a dynamic language with closures and first-class functions? You don't. Client-side testing works fine without DI. Angular is just a way to do Java in JavaScript. It's a pile of unnecessary complexity designed to sell to enterprises that love over-designed Java projects and want to make client-side development feel more similar to what they know. In that regard I suppose Angular is a little better than Google Web Toolkit, but that isn't saying much.
    - andybak 11y ago
      > ng-if, ng-switch, ng-repeat? There's already a language in the browser that does these things, it's called JavaScript. It's nice to have a largely declarative way to specify markup but still allow simple loops and conditionals. Hasn't every template language in the world has come to a similar conclusion?
      - jarrettc 11y ago
        > Hasn't every template language in the world has come to a similar conclusion? No, not even every mainstream template language. For example, I still use ERB and EJS extensively, and so do many other engineers. ERB and EJS use the control flow constructs of the underlying languages (Ruby and JS, respectively). There is of course debate about whether templates should expose the full power of a programming language. I have tried templating languages that do and ones that don't. For now, I'm sticking with templates that let me mix in arbitrary code as I see fit. Could I abuse that power and make a mess? Absolutely. But I try not to, and my code stays pretty maintainable.
- debaserab2 11y ago
  I can make functional prototypes very, very quickly with angular. There are things it does not do well, in my opinion, but it has given me a tool that previously didn't exist in the JS world. I don't care about the turing completeness of angular.