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I thought Patio11 was an A/B optimization, strategy god... Why did he abandon BCC? Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their mo

I thought Patio11 was an A/B optimization, strategy god... Why did he abandon BCC? Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their money selling their brand, seminars, ebooks, etc. and not via the methods/techniques they preach.

URSpider94 11y ago
Opportunity cost. He has other projects that offer greater opportunity and which he is more passionate about. He's written about this repeatedly.
- anon8418 11y ago
  Passive recurring revenue sounds like a pretty good deal. Especially when you can plow idle hours (weekends, evenings, etc.) to "optimize" it. I'm not sure the opportunity costs are that high... especially when you're 1. Only spending a handful of hours on it (his claim) and 2. Your whole schtick for your consulting services is how you deserve $$$$ because using your A/B optimization whatever skills you can improve conversion/traction by xxxx%! He spent 9 years on BCC that resulted in ~30K (edited, misread as 60K) in ARR. I think his ideas and insights are valid. I just find it odd the contrast between his curated HN celebrity image as an uber-hacker with his actual results. Doesn't seem like his skills resulted in much success with BCC but it sure helps his consulting career... Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :)
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    Umm, I think it was only ~$30k ARR. "Yearly Revenue: $31,000" Where did you get $60k from?
  - true_religion 11y ago
    I don't know about the image of uber-hacker, but it would be fair to say that he's been seen as a very good marketer---both of BCC and his own skillset. Those skills are clearly that which people envy, even though it's not hacking.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - danenania 11y ago
    Patio's street cred doesn't come from the results of BCC, which was designed to be a small low-effort business. It comes from A.) His tremendous skill as a writer-teacher and B.) His track record of consulting success. BCC seems to have been a learning playground that gave him a real business on which to sharpen the skills he's now known for, and which produced a bit of profit on top to boot. But a small competitive market is still a small competitive market. There's only so far optimization can take you in that scenario--if you have the skills, you're better off seeking a bigger pie to apply them to.
  - prawn 11y ago
    His inflated "profile" comes from being one of few who actually put their numbers and specifics out there. And because there are still loads of aspiring lifestyle-business hopefuls for whom $30k is a fantastic goal. Not to say I don't find it strange in some ways too - I've had passive projects make more with less effort - but I don't talk about it, thus no profile.
  - oe 11y ago
    > Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :) You're the awkward guy at the party who likes to think he's making people uncomfortable with his comments but failing at it. I too don't see the point of optimising a product you don't want to work with anymore, if there are more lucrative projects on the horizon.
  - weaksauce 11y ago
    Well, the site was in a year over year downward trend in revenue. Why invest time in it to make it more profitable when he's got other ventures that are making mor or are more promising? He could let it die or make a small chunk of change on it and focus on things elsewhere.
Jipha 11y ago
> Why did he abandon BCC? To spend more time on Starfighter I'm guessing: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ > Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their money selling their brand, seminars, ebooks, etc. and not via the methods/techniques they preach. What does that have to do with selling BCC?
- anon8418 11y ago
  > What does that have to do with selling BCC? Nothing at all. Just a general observation. I just find it interesting that he couldn't apply the very skills he has (which he is certainly talented at - no doubt) to save his business. I wish he would do a detailed writeup about why. He makes it sound like neglect (only spending a few hours on it last year) and opportunity cost (his booming consulting work), but I wonder if he tried to slow down / reverse the declining revenue and just failed or whatever.
  - TylerE 11y ago
    I'm not sure "saving his business" really applies. I mean, it's Bingo Card Creator, that's not exactly a $10b market.
  - JamesBarney 11y ago
    It probably takes a similar amount of time to increase BCC, Appointment Reminder, or a medium sized SAAS company revenue by 10%, so it didn't make sense for him to work on it anymore.
  - jdietrich 11y ago
    >I wish he would do a detailed writeup about why. He makes it sound like neglect (only spending a few hours on it last year) and opportunity cost (his booming consulting work) I think the answer is perfectly simple - he's making much more money from Appointment Reminder, launching Starfighter will take up a great deal of his time, and he has just had a baby. Selling BCC now makes more sense than just letting it wind down through neglect. According to his last Year in Review, BCC accounted for only about 15% of his income. Selling up strikes me as a classic Patio11 optimisation. http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-...
nate 11y ago
Focus. It takes a lot of effort to keep multiple projects in the air. Even something that "runs itself" never really does. I've got Draft going while I work on Highrise, and Draft works very well on its own, but I still have to deal with support requests, downtime, upgrades, refunds, and more. The guy wants to focus on his other projects. Patrick's never hidden the fact that selling Bingo Cards isn't as lucrative as his other projects. He's super honest and open about what goes down. https://www.bingocardcreator.com/stats https://www.bingocardcreator.com/stats Tons of good lessons he's learned that he's now applied to other business via consulting, Appointment Reminder, and now at Starfighter (http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/) Look at 37signals. They decided they needed to focus on Basecamp to make it as good as they want. http://37signals.com/ http://37signals.com/ We all should be shedding more and more stuff in our lives to focus on the bits we want to grow and see further through. Nothing at all wrong about that.
- anon8418 11y ago
  Well according to Patrick's own year in review, BCC is a pretty sizable % of his total annual revenue... I find it interesting that his goals for 2015 seem to be focused on selling his courseware, etc. on optimization, etc. This is where the Tim Ferris comment comes from...
  - true_religion 11y ago
    Well how much makes a 'sizeable percentage'. 10%, 20%? 30%?
    - anon8418 11y ago
      Looks like close to ~30% last year (after seeing ARR fall by 30%). [1] I think higher in prior years. He claims to have spent only a handful of hours on BCC last year. So spending less than say 20 hours on a project and having it generate ~30% of revenue, passively, seems like a pretty good deal. Another poster mentioned focus, but that doesn't really seem to be the case here. Of course all this is conjecture. [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-...
modarts 11y ago
Similar to Multi-level marketing pyramid schemes too
tptacek 11y ago
He had something else he wanted to work on. It's not complicated.
netcan 11y ago
First, even Rich Dad Poor Dad gets an excessive amount of snobbish criticism. It's a book selling business. But, there's nothing really wrong with that. Either it's fluff and entertainment and no worse than a book about ice skating. Or, it's a self help book about money that is simple and written for an audience that has never thought about investing. The main message is fairly basic. Spending money and effort on things like investment property is the way to accumulate wealth. He sprinkled in a healthy dose of self help woo and nonsense, but no more than life hacking, dieting, fitness or any other self help best seller type book. Second (and far more importantly), Patio11 is about 12 rungs above any of that. His level of transparency and mystery-free writing is almost unheard of. This kind of "If you're so awesome why don't you.." criticism is such a pity. It can and does deter people from sharing (I know it would deter me). You have the full story available to you. The history of this site/business. The stuff that it led to. The financials. The effort required. The eventual sell price. An underhanded comment implying self serving dishonesty is so unjustified and unfair, nevermind uncharitable. It's a cheap shot and it's depressing.
- carrotleads 11y ago
  yep.. we need to support people when they have been transparent as patio11 has been... I would say, even at lesser levels of transparency we need to encourage such people rather than tearing them a new one.

URSpider94 11y ago

Opportunity cost. He has other projects that offer greater opportunity and which he is more passionate about. He's written about this repeatedly.

anon8418 11y ago
Passive recurring revenue sounds like a pretty good deal. Especially when you can plow idle hours (weekends, evenings, etc.) to "optimize" it. I'm not sure the opportunity costs are that high... especially when you're 1. Only spending a handful of hours on it (his claim) and 2. Your whole schtick for your consulting services is how you deserve $$$$ because using your A/B optimization whatever skills you can improve conversion/traction by xxxx%! He spent 9 years on BCC that resulted in ~30K (edited, misread as 60K) in ARR. I think his ideas and insights are valid. I just find it odd the contrast between his curated HN celebrity image as an uber-hacker with his actual results. Doesn't seem like his skills resulted in much success with BCC but it sure helps his consulting career... Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :)
- fweespeech 11y ago
  Umm, I think it was only ~$30k ARR. "Yearly Revenue: $31,000" Where did you get $60k from?
- true_religion 11y ago
  I don't know about the image of uber-hacker, but it would be fair to say that he's been seen as a very good marketer---both of BCC and his own skillset. Those skills are clearly that which people envy, even though it's not hacking.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- danenania 11y ago
  Patio's street cred doesn't come from the results of BCC, which was designed to be a small low-effort business. It comes from A.) His tremendous skill as a writer-teacher and B.) His track record of consulting success. BCC seems to have been a learning playground that gave him a real business on which to sharpen the skills he's now known for, and which produced a bit of profit on top to boot. But a small competitive market is still a small competitive market. There's only so far optimization can take you in that scenario--if you have the skills, you're better off seeking a bigger pie to apply them to.
- prawn 11y ago
  His inflated "profile" comes from being one of few who actually put their numbers and specifics out there. And because there are still loads of aspiring lifestyle-business hopefuls for whom $30k is a fantastic goal. Not to say I don't find it strange in some ways too - I've had passive projects make more with less effort - but I don't talk about it, thus no profile.
- oe 11y ago
  > Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :) You're the awkward guy at the party who likes to think he's making people uncomfortable with his comments but failing at it. I too don't see the point of optimising a product you don't want to work with anymore, if there are more lucrative projects on the horizon.
- weaksauce 11y ago
  Well, the site was in a year over year downward trend in revenue. Why invest time in it to make it more profitable when he's got other ventures that are making mor or are more promising? He could let it die or make a small chunk of change on it and focus on things elsewhere.

Jipha 11y ago

> Why did he abandon BCC? To spend more time on Starfighter I'm guessing: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ > Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their money selling their brand, seminars, ebooks, etc. and not via the methods/techniques they preach. What does that have to do with selling BCC?

anon8418 11y ago
> What does that have to do with selling BCC? Nothing at all. Just a general observation. I just find it interesting that he couldn't apply the very skills he has (which he is certainly talented at - no doubt) to save his business. I wish he would do a detailed writeup about why. He makes it sound like neglect (only spending a few hours on it last year) and opportunity cost (his booming consulting work), but I wonder if he tried to slow down / reverse the declining revenue and just failed or whatever.
- TylerE 11y ago
  I'm not sure "saving his business" really applies. I mean, it's Bingo Card Creator, that's not exactly a $10b market.
- JamesBarney 11y ago
  It probably takes a similar amount of time to increase BCC, Appointment Reminder, or a medium sized SAAS company revenue by 10%, so it didn't make sense for him to work on it anymore.
- jdietrich 11y ago
  >I wish he would do a detailed writeup about why. He makes it sound like neglect (only spending a few hours on it last year) and opportunity cost (his booming consulting work) I think the answer is perfectly simple - he's making much more money from Appointment Reminder, launching Starfighter will take up a great deal of his time, and he has just had a baby. Selling BCC now makes more sense than just letting it wind down through neglect. According to his last Year in Review, BCC accounted for only about 15% of his income. Selling up strikes me as a classic Patio11 optimisation. http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-...

nate 11y ago

Focus. It takes a lot of effort to keep multiple projects in the air. Even something that "runs itself" never really does. I've got Draft going while I work on Highrise, and Draft works very well on its own, but I still have to deal with support requests, downtime, upgrades, refunds, and more. The guy wants to focus on his other projects. Patrick's never hidden the fact that selling Bingo Cards isn't as lucrative as his other projects. He's super honest and open about what goes down. https://www.bingocardcreator.com/stats https://www.bingocardcreator.com/stats Tons of good lessons he's learned that he's now applied to other business via consulting, Appointment Reminder, and now at Starfighter (http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2015/03/09/announcing-starfighter/) Look at 37signals. They decided they needed to focus on Basecamp to make it as good as they want. http://37signals.com/ http://37signals.com/ We all should be shedding more and more stuff in our lives to focus on the bits we want to grow and see further through. Nothing at all wrong about that.

anon8418 11y ago
Well according to Patrick's own year in review, BCC is a pretty sizable % of his total annual revenue... I find it interesting that his goals for 2015 seem to be focused on selling his courseware, etc. on optimization, etc. This is where the Tim Ferris comment comes from...
- true_religion 11y ago
  Well how much makes a 'sizeable percentage'. 10%, 20%? 30%?
  - anon8418 11y ago
    Looks like close to ~30% last year (after seeing ARR fall by 30%). [1] I think higher in prior years. He claims to have spent only a handful of hours on BCC last year. So spending less than say 20 hours on a project and having it generate ~30% of revenue, passively, seems like a pretty good deal. Another poster mentioned focus, but that doesn't really seem to be the case here. Of course all this is conjecture. [1] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-...

modarts 11y ago

Similar to Multi-level marketing pyramid schemes too

tptacek 11y ago

He had something else he wanted to work on. It's not complicated.

netcan 11y ago

First, even Rich Dad Poor Dad gets an excessive amount of snobbish criticism. It's a book selling business. But, there's nothing really wrong with that. Either it's fluff and entertainment and no worse than a book about ice skating. Or, it's a self help book about money that is simple and written for an audience that has never thought about investing. The main message is fairly basic. Spending money and effort on things like investment property is the way to accumulate wealth. He sprinkled in a healthy dose of self help woo and nonsense, but no more than life hacking, dieting, fitness or any other self help best seller type book. Second (and far more importantly), Patio11 is about 12 rungs above any of that. His level of transparency and mystery-free writing is almost unheard of. This kind of "If you're so awesome why don't you.." criticism is such a pity. It can and does deter people from sharing (I know it would deter me). You have the full story available to you. The history of this site/business. The stuff that it led to. The financials. The effort required. The eventual sell price. An underhanded comment implying self serving dishonesty is so unjustified and unfair, nevermind uncharitable. It's a cheap shot and it's depressing.

carrotleads 11y ago
yep.. we need to support people when they have been transparent as patio11 has been... I would say, even at lesser levels of transparency we need to encourage such people rather than tearing them a new one.