4 ms·

The Peter Principle in effect. Apple wants Ive to be the new Jobs but his software taste just isn't as refined and it's distracting from his hardware work which

The Peter Principle in effect. Apple wants Ive to be the new Jobs but his software taste just isn't as refined and it's distracting from his hardware work which is getting lazy. The Apple Watch is literally an iPhone on your wrist[0]; it's quite ugly for a watch. I'd rather have Jony back focused on hardware instead of failing upwards. [0] http://i.imgur.com/8pcfcbk.jpg http://i.imgur.com/8pcfcbk.jpg

callumjones 11y ago
The Apple Watch is a hardware device so I think you've picked the wrong reference for his supposed unrefined software taste (which I think iOS 8+ proves this incorrect). Also you've shown a comparison between a first generation device and first generation device, what is particularly wrong with the watch?
DigitalJack 11y ago
And nobody ever said the same thing about iPad.
- thejosh 11y ago
  Seriously, the amount of jokes about the iPad when that first came out were hilarious because now all those jokers have an iPad themselves.
  - Gigablah 11y ago
    iPad usage seems to have dropped significantly, though. I almost never see anyone using it anymore. They're gathering dust in cupboards.
    - threeseed 11y ago
      It hasn't dropped significantly within the tablet market: https://chitika.com/insights/2015/q1-tablet-update https://chitika.com/insights/2015/q1-tablet-update If you are talking about the entire table market dropping in usage then it isn't significant (6% y/y): http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS25593415 http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS25593415
    - IBM 11y ago
      According to Tim Cook on a recent earnings call, usage of iPads and customer satisfaction has remained the same. It's pretty much just replacement cycles that will determine iPad sales going forward.
    - Watabou 11y ago
      I think this is mostly due to the replacement cycle. Most people who want the iPad, bought one. But -- you don't replace an iPad every year or two like you do an iPhone. Even if you have the iPad 2 for instance, it's a very capable device, there's no reason to go out right now and buy the latest iPad unless you specifically want extra features like Touch ID.
    - parasubvert 11y ago
      Completely the opposite from what I see. They're everywhere I look, at work, at home, on the train, at restaurants. Kids especially can't get enough of them. Sales have dropped off, but even the browser market share for iPad remains high among tablets.
      - threatofrain 11y ago
        I am surprised that your personal experience is one of many iPads in the wild. When I'm going about cafes, bookstores, and libraries, in or about Cupertino, Mountain View, and Palo Alto, I find that people almost exclusively use laptops as their sit-down device. I wouldn't be surprised if phones were the second most-used sit-down device.
        parasubvert 11y ago
        Was in Red Rock Coffee in Mountain View last week and (guestimating) saw about 60% laptops (mostly Mac) and 40% tablets upstairs. Didn't count who was on phones (including me). Most of my travels are in Canada however, and in Vancouver , Calgary, or Toronto the ratio is inverted - more iPads than laptops. Business meetings too - lots of iPads. I know my 5 year old prefers our iPad to any other device or toy - even the big screen projector. This is similar with other parents in our circles where iPad grounding is one of the more effective forms of discipline. These are all anecdotes and in the grand scheme mean little, just a counter example to the "collecting dust" theory. They're also still outselling all Macs by 3x though it used to be 5x. So something is happening to iPad purchase trends but it's not clear why.
    - MBCook 11y ago
      That's not true. iPad SALES are down, but that doesn't mean USE is. My mom still loves her iPad one. I know someone who wouldn't have replaced their iPad mini if they hadn't stepped on it (despite being basically an iPad two). Without the subsidy of mobile phones people don't seem to buy new ones as fast. Doesn't mean the iPad is dying, just that the market is closer to saturated than it was 2 years ago.
      - pilsetnieks 11y ago
        It's not even that sales are down, sales growth is down, which is why every analyst is shouting from the rooftops about how Apple is DOOMED.
    - lampchop 11y ago
      I do quite a lot of travelling and the iPad usage depends very much on locale.
    - MaysonL 11y ago
      iPad usage is as strong as ever, or stronger: it's their sales that have slumped.
    - Grue3 11y ago
      Agreed, I haven't seen any iPads, nor any iPad advertisements either lately. The product is a lemon, only bolstered by the endless consumerism of Apple fans. Apple Watch will meet the same fate.
derefr 11y ago
> The Apple Watch is literally an iPhone on your wrist[0]; it's quite ugly for a watch. I agree; it's literally an iPhone 1. But I think the iPhone 1 looked the way it did due to some pretty heavy design-constraints—it wasn't simple, back then, to get the amount of hardware they did into the package-size. And the same is true today with the Watch. I fully expect the package to shrink and the design to become less "forced" and more "designed" over time.
- nathancahill 11y ago
  Not sure where I saw this, but love this image likening the two, captioned "A New Start": http://i.imgur.com/QDMncbP.png http://i.imgur.com/QDMncbP.png Ah, here's the source: https://twitter.com/lukew/status/594628479766761472 https://twitter.com/lukew/status/594628479766761472
kaolinite 11y ago
It might look like an iPhone in a way but frankly, it'd be odd if it didn't. The question is whether they just shrank the iPhone software - that's what matters - and quite clearly, they didn't. There are a few changes they could make but for a first generation product, they nailed it on so many levels. Regarding aesthetics, clearly that's subjective, but many traditional watch enthusiasts (such as Benjamin Clymer of Hodinkee and Ariel Adams of aBlogToWatch) have had a number of good things to say about the hardware design. From Hodinkee's fantastic Apple Watch piece[1]: "Apple got more details right on their watch than the vast majority of Swiss and Asian brands do with similarly priced watches, and those details add up to a really impressive piece of design" Finally, to address your initial point, I see no evidence that his software taste is less refined, nor that his hardware work is getting lazy. iOS 7, which I suspect is what you're referring to regarding his software taste, received some negative feedback when first unveiled but has since become well liked, albeit with a few lingering usability concerns, especially since they refined it with iOS 8. The Apple Watch bands alone are incredibly well designed, with a number of improvements over traditional watch bands that the Swiss ought to be ashamed they hadn't invented yet[2]. I'll give two examples. 1. If you've ever changed a leather watch band, you'll know how much of a pain it is. Most people go to a watchmaker to change them. Apple Watch bands are easily interchangeable. How obvious, right? Yet nobody else does this. 2. If you've ever bought a watch with a metal link bracelet, you need to have it adjusted for you at the store. Why? Because you need a specialist tool to do it. If you ever need to change the size, you need to go into a store to get it readjusted[3]. Again, incredibly obvious to make this user interchangeable, yet nobody else did it. If Ive was as lazy as you say, he would have been happy to use traditional watch bands, the type that every other watch and smartwatch uses, and require users to go into an Apple Store to change them or to adjust them. Two examples of great design, off the top of my head, just for watch bands - I can't imagine how you think he's lazy. [1] http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/hodinkee-apple-watch-review http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/hodinkee-apple-watch-review [2] And this isn't due to a lack of innovation. The Swiss (and watchmakers of other countries too) spend a lot of time sweating the details on watch straps, buckles and deployant clasps, e.g. http://www.rolex.com/about-rolex/bracelets.html http://www.rolex.com/about-rolex/bracelets.html [3] In addition, the tools for this often proprietary or vary by brand. Check out the variety of tools that are available for adjusting watch bracelets: http://www.ofrei.com/page237.html http://www.ofrei.com/page237.html Leather watch strap spring bars (the little bit of metal that attaches the band to the lugs) are also often proprietary.
threeseed 11y ago
I think you need to learn what literally means. It isn't an iPhone on your wrist and when you actually use it has its own identity, behaviour patterns and user interface paradigms (tap, digital crown). Your argument is no different to the "iPad is just a bigger iPhone" which has been shown to be baseless by anyone who has ever owned one. As for it being ugly I respectively disagree and given the popularity amongst fashion circles and in general I am guessing most others do too.
- danellis 11y ago
  > I think you need to learn what literally means. From MW: in effect : virtually <will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice — Norman Cousins> From Google: informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true. "I have received literally thousands of letters" From dictionary.com: in effect; in substance; very nearly; virtually: I literally died when she walked out on stage in that costume.
  - acheron 11y ago
    These people are making language objectively worse and should not be encouraged.
    - danellis 11y ago
      Who are "these people"? People documenting a word's meaning that has been in use for over a hundred years? That's their job.
  - threeseed 11y ago
    Being a bit disingenuous, no ? Literally has two definitions the first being the more correct as it is an extension of the word literal. The classical definition and the more recent definition (last few years). http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/literally http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/literal... As I articulated, in both definitions it is not like having an iPhone on your wrist.
IkmoIkmo 11y ago
I didn't have much against the Apple watch myself. It's an incredibly tricky thing to pull off and I don't really think anyone has so far. What were you expecting in terms of design? It seems like it's hands down the best watch with straps very well done. I prefer a circular look but then I can easily understand going for a regular look both technically (more hardware volume) and design wise (most information is displayed much better in rectangular form). There'll be a few iterations to make it nicer looking, can't say they did a bad job. About the rectangular/circular form thing... I think the problem may be calling it a smartwatch. A smartphone isn't really a smartphone. It's a portable all-in-one (built in screen, speakers, microphone etc) computer, whose telephone functionality happens to be the least interesting (and at one point shifting to voice over ip, meaning it's as much a smartphone as your laptop or desktop computer is). Calling phones small tablets makes more sense, at least until recently when phones rival tablet sizes. But nobody really complains because the semantical evolution makes some sense and doesn't cause any real friction. But with a smartwatch, people expect it to look like this [0] but it doesn't, because it's main function is not telling time. Its main function is being a wrist computer, which happens to also be able to tell time. And that wrist computer does things that fit better in a rectangular form, which creates friction with people to whom a rectangular watch happens to be pretty ugly. Anyway I didn't think the first iPhone was particularly pretty. I can't say the apple watch is different. In today's context it is nice in my opinion, just like the iphone was back then in comparison, but I still don't want an apple watch right now. I'm happy to wait out the 2016-17 versions. [0] http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/round-apple-watch-concept-2-1280x864.png http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/round-apple-watch-conce...

callumjones 11y ago

The Apple Watch is a hardware device so I think you've picked the wrong reference for his supposed unrefined software taste (which I think iOS 8+ proves this incorrect). Also you've shown a comparison between a first generation device and first generation device, what is particularly wrong with the watch?

DigitalJack 11y ago

And nobody ever said the same thing about iPad.

thejosh 11y ago
Seriously, the amount of jokes about the iPad when that first came out were hilarious because now all those jokers have an iPad themselves.
- Gigablah 11y ago
  iPad usage seems to have dropped significantly, though. I almost never see anyone using it anymore. They're gathering dust in cupboards.
  - threeseed 11y ago
    It hasn't dropped significantly within the tablet market: https://chitika.com/insights/2015/q1-tablet-update https://chitika.com/insights/2015/q1-tablet-update If you are talking about the entire table market dropping in usage then it isn't significant (6% y/y): http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS25593415 http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS25593415
  - IBM 11y ago
    According to Tim Cook on a recent earnings call, usage of iPads and customer satisfaction has remained the same. It's pretty much just replacement cycles that will determine iPad sales going forward.
  - Watabou 11y ago
    I think this is mostly due to the replacement cycle. Most people who want the iPad, bought one. But -- you don't replace an iPad every year or two like you do an iPhone. Even if you have the iPad 2 for instance, it's a very capable device, there's no reason to go out right now and buy the latest iPad unless you specifically want extra features like Touch ID.
  - parasubvert 11y ago
    Completely the opposite from what I see. They're everywhere I look, at work, at home, on the train, at restaurants. Kids especially can't get enough of them. Sales have dropped off, but even the browser market share for iPad remains high among tablets.
    - threatofrain 11y ago
      I am surprised that your personal experience is one of many iPads in the wild. When I'm going about cafes, bookstores, and libraries, in or about Cupertino, Mountain View, and Palo Alto, I find that people almost exclusively use laptops as their sit-down device. I wouldn't be surprised if phones were the second most-used sit-down device.
      - parasubvert 11y ago
        Was in Red Rock Coffee in Mountain View last week and (guestimating) saw about 60% laptops (mostly Mac) and 40% tablets upstairs. Didn't count who was on phones (including me). Most of my travels are in Canada however, and in Vancouver , Calgary, or Toronto the ratio is inverted - more iPads than laptops. Business meetings too - lots of iPads. I know my 5 year old prefers our iPad to any other device or toy - even the big screen projector. This is similar with other parents in our circles where iPad grounding is one of the more effective forms of discipline. These are all anecdotes and in the grand scheme mean little, just a counter example to the "collecting dust" theory. They're also still outselling all Macs by 3x though it used to be 5x. So something is happening to iPad purchase trends but it's not clear why.
  - MBCook 11y ago
    That's not true. iPad SALES are down, but that doesn't mean USE is. My mom still loves her iPad one. I know someone who wouldn't have replaced their iPad mini if they hadn't stepped on it (despite being basically an iPad two). Without the subsidy of mobile phones people don't seem to buy new ones as fast. Doesn't mean the iPad is dying, just that the market is closer to saturated than it was 2 years ago.
    - pilsetnieks 11y ago
      It's not even that sales are down, sales growth is down, which is why every analyst is shouting from the rooftops about how Apple is DOOMED.
  - lampchop 11y ago
    I do quite a lot of travelling and the iPad usage depends very much on locale.
  - MaysonL 11y ago
    iPad usage is as strong as ever, or stronger: it's their sales that have slumped.
  - Grue3 11y ago
    Agreed, I haven't seen any iPads, nor any iPad advertisements either lately. The product is a lemon, only bolstered by the endless consumerism of Apple fans. Apple Watch will meet the same fate.

derefr 11y ago

> The Apple Watch is literally an iPhone on your wrist[0]; it's quite ugly for a watch. I agree; it's literally an iPhone 1. But I think the iPhone 1 looked the way it did due to some pretty heavy design-constraints—it wasn't simple, back then, to get the amount of hardware they did into the package-size. And the same is true today with the Watch. I fully expect the package to shrink and the design to become less "forced" and more "designed" over time.

nathancahill 11y ago
Not sure where I saw this, but love this image likening the two, captioned "A New Start": http://i.imgur.com/QDMncbP.png http://i.imgur.com/QDMncbP.png Ah, here's the source: https://twitter.com/lukew/status/594628479766761472 https://twitter.com/lukew/status/594628479766761472

kaolinite 11y ago

It might look like an iPhone in a way but frankly, it'd be odd if it didn't. The question is whether they just shrank the iPhone software - that's what matters - and quite clearly, they didn't. There are a few changes they could make but for a first generation product, they nailed it on so many levels. Regarding aesthetics, clearly that's subjective, but many traditional watch enthusiasts (such as Benjamin Clymer of Hodinkee and Ariel Adams of aBlogToWatch) have had a number of good things to say about the hardware design. From Hodinkee's fantastic Apple Watch piece[1]: "Apple got more details right on their watch than the vast majority of Swiss and Asian brands do with similarly priced watches, and those details add up to a really impressive piece of design" Finally, to address your initial point, I see no evidence that his software taste is less refined, nor that his hardware work is getting lazy. iOS 7, which I suspect is what you're referring to regarding his software taste, received some negative feedback when first unveiled but has since become well liked, albeit with a few lingering usability concerns, especially since they refined it with iOS 8. The Apple Watch bands alone are incredibly well designed, with a number of improvements over traditional watch bands that the Swiss ought to be ashamed they hadn't invented yet[2]. I'll give two examples. 1. If you've ever changed a leather watch band, you'll know how much of a pain it is. Most people go to a watchmaker to change them. Apple Watch bands are easily interchangeable. How obvious, right? Yet nobody else does this. 2. If you've ever bought a watch with a metal link bracelet, you need to have it adjusted for you at the store. Why? Because you need a specialist tool to do it. If you ever need to change the size, you need to go into a store to get it readjusted[3]. Again, incredibly obvious to make this user interchangeable, yet nobody else did it. If Ive was as lazy as you say, he would have been happy to use traditional watch bands, the type that every other watch and smartwatch uses, and require users to go into an Apple Store to change them or to adjust them. Two examples of great design, off the top of my head, just for watch bands - I can't imagine how you think he's lazy. [1] http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/hodinkee-apple-watch-review http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/hodinkee-apple-watch-review [2] And this isn't due to a lack of innovation. The Swiss (and watchmakers of other countries too) spend a lot of time sweating the details on watch straps, buckles and deployant clasps, e.g. http://www.rolex.com/about-rolex/bracelets.html http://www.rolex.com/about-rolex/bracelets.html [3] In addition, the tools for this often proprietary or vary by brand. Check out the variety of tools that are available for adjusting watch bracelets: http://www.ofrei.com/page237.html http://www.ofrei.com/page237.html Leather watch strap spring bars (the little bit of metal that attaches the band to the lugs) are also often proprietary.

threeseed 11y ago

I think you need to learn what literally means. It isn't an iPhone on your wrist and when you actually use it has its own identity, behaviour patterns and user interface paradigms (tap, digital crown). Your argument is no different to the "iPad is just a bigger iPhone" which has been shown to be baseless by anyone who has ever owned one. As for it being ugly I respectively disagree and given the popularity amongst fashion circles and in general I am guessing most others do too.

danellis 11y ago
> I think you need to learn what literally means. From MW: in effect : virtually <will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice — Norman Cousins> From Google: informal used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true. "I have received literally thousands of letters" From dictionary.com: in effect; in substance; very nearly; virtually: I literally died when she walked out on stage in that costume.
- acheron 11y ago
  These people are making language objectively worse and should not be encouraged.
  - danellis 11y ago
    Who are "these people"? People documenting a word's meaning that has been in use for over a hundred years? That's their job.
- threeseed 11y ago
  Being a bit disingenuous, no ? Literally has two definitions the first being the more correct as it is an extension of the word literal. The classical definition and the more recent definition (last few years). http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/literally http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/literal... As I articulated, in both definitions it is not like having an iPhone on your wrist.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago

I didn't have much against the Apple watch myself. It's an incredibly tricky thing to pull off and I don't really think anyone has so far. What were you expecting in terms of design? It seems like it's hands down the best watch with straps very well done. I prefer a circular look but then I can easily understand going for a regular look both technically (more hardware volume) and design wise (most information is displayed much better in rectangular form). There'll be a few iterations to make it nicer looking, can't say they did a bad job. About the rectangular/circular form thing... I think the problem may be calling it a smartwatch. A smartphone isn't really a smartphone. It's a portable all-in-one (built in screen, speakers, microphone etc) computer, whose telephone functionality happens to be the least interesting (and at one point shifting to voice over ip, meaning it's as much a smartphone as your laptop or desktop computer is). Calling phones small tablets makes more sense, at least until recently when phones rival tablet sizes. But nobody really complains because the semantical evolution makes some sense and doesn't cause any real friction. But with a smartwatch, people expect it to look like this [0] but it doesn't, because it's main function is not telling time. Its main function is being a wrist computer, which happens to also be able to tell time. And that wrist computer does things that fit better in a rectangular form, which creates friction with people to whom a rectangular watch happens to be pretty ugly. Anyway I didn't think the first iPhone was particularly pretty. I can't say the apple watch is different. In today's context it is nice in my opinion, just like the iphone was back then in comparison, but I still don't want an apple watch right now. I'm happy to wait out the 2016-17 versions. [0] http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/round-apple-watch-concept-2-1280x864.png http://icdn8.digitaltrends.com/image/round-apple-watch-conce...