34 ms·

BingoCardCreator.com Sale Page

292 points by pw 11y ago

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
stephentmcm 11y ago
I don't get it why is this front-page and up voted 30+times?
- jonathankoren 11y ago
  It's from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901
- bobbles 11y ago
  he brought it up in a thread a few days ago, I'm guessing someone just went back through to find the page
- gus_massa 11y ago
  Patio11 is one of the local celebrities, his articles and comments are very interesting. He is currently the #3 user with more karma, just after tptacek and pg (the very site owner). Profile: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11 "Author:patio11" in Algolia: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=all&query=author:patio11 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&date... "Patio11 fan club" in hnapp: http://hnapp.com/?q=author%3Apatio11%20%7C%20host%3Akalzumeus.com http://hnapp.com/?q=author%3Apatio11%20%7C%20host%3Akalzumeu...
  - hellodevnull 11y ago
    I couldn't see pg in the leaders list but he does in fact have the second most karma (unless there are others missing from this list). https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders
- SFjulie1 11y ago
  it smells of multiple accounts :)
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
pen2l 11y ago
Interestingly, does anyone remember lionhearted's posts from so long ago, where he pondered over the question why patio11 makes so little money, and why he charges so little? And the community reacted very fiercely, saying that he should let patio11 be -- he's doing his thing, money doesn't matter. And now patio11 is the posterboy for "charge more". How things change! It's kind of fascinating. Here's the HN discussion link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1720244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1720244 And here's Sebastian's original post: http://sebastianmarshall.com/the-genius-and-tragedy-of-patrick-mckenzie http://sebastianmarshall.com/the-genius-and-tragedy-of-patri...
- derefr 11y ago
  > And now patio11 is the posterboy for "charge more" I'd say that, if Patrick had believed in charging more from the start, he wouldn't be nearly as outspoken about it now. It is presumably (close to) the #1 thing he wishes he could tell younger-Patrick—but, since he can't, he's telling everyone else who'll listen. Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder what Patrick would have to say to the HN community at the time, the one who stood up to defend his undervaluation-of-self? I mean, maybe they'd have defended him no matter what side of the coin he was on, given that he's a pretty central member of the HN "tribe"—but I'd be interested in a corollary post to the "charge more" posts that goes more like "don't praise people for charging less."
  - zkhalique 11y ago
    so patio11, was lionhearted an influence on you?
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I have talked to Patrick at what I think he & I & Erin would agree is excruciating length on this subject and that name has never come up in those conversations. Many others have: Peldi, Amy Hoy, I think Brennan Dunn, and most especially Joel Spolsky.
      - 11y ago
mijustin 11y ago
I think this shows that software product valuations really are variable. People quote things like "2x revenue" all the way up to "15x revenue." If these stats are correct, patio11 sold his for roughly 1.8x yearly revenue. If revenue and margins stay stable, the new owner will recoup their investment in 3 years. This seems reasonable to me.
- 31reasons 11y ago
  3 years in a very unpredictable field is a very long time. Anyone can come up with exactly the same product in much less time than before.
  - cpayne 11y ago
    Not sure why this comment got downvoted without a reply. Anyway, I remember hearing the same argument when Youtube exploded. It's one thing to have a product (Bingo Cards, Youtube or whatever) but distribution and an existing client base is another.
  - bigiain 11y ago
    That's true - what is gonna be much harder for any new competitor is to match BCC's SEO. Nine years worth of intelligent, diversified, and Google friendly reputation building is not going to be duplicated quickly. It wouldn't be an _impossible_ task to outcompete BCC I suspect, especially if the new owner just lets it coast and wind down instead of staying on top of the game (which Patrick readily admits he hasn't done for some time), but I suspect you'd probably need a PPC budget of around the same magnitude that the new owner just paid to kick-start a competitor - even if you already had production-ready code and a suitable hosting platform ready-to-go. I think you're right - in that assuming "it'll be paid off in three years" is a naive view of the way SaaS businesses age - but I also suspect there are already several "exactly the same product"s out there already, none of which have got the traction BCC has, and that the value here is not in a bunch of code that makes PDFs from lists, but in the business backend and the historical web presence and SEO.
    - 11y ago
anon8418 11y ago
I thought Patio11 was an A/B optimization, strategy god... Why did he abandon BCC? Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their money selling their brand, seminars, ebooks, etc. and not via the methods/techniques they preach.
- URSpider94 11y ago
  Opportunity cost. He has other projects that offer greater opportunity and which he is more passionate about. He's written about this repeatedly.
  - anon8418 11y ago
    Passive recurring revenue sounds like a pretty good deal. Especially when you can plow idle hours (weekends, evenings, etc.) to "optimize" it. I'm not sure the opportunity costs are that high... especially when you're 1. Only spending a handful of hours on it (his claim) and 2. Your whole schtick for your consulting services is how you deserve $$$$ because using your A/B optimization whatever skills you can improve conversion/traction by xxxx%! He spent 9 years on BCC that resulted in ~30K (edited, misread as 60K) in ARR. I think his ideas and insights are valid. I just find it odd the contrast between his curated HN celebrity image as an uber-hacker with his actual results. Doesn't seem like his skills resulted in much success with BCC but it sure helps his consulting career... Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :)
    - fweespeech 11y ago
      Umm, I think it was only ~$30k ARR. "Yearly Revenue: $31,000" Where did you get $60k from?
    - true_religion 11y ago
      I don't know about the image of uber-hacker, but it would be fair to say that he's been seen as a very good marketer---both of BCC and his own skillset. Those skills are clearly that which people envy, even though it's not hacking.
patio11 11y ago
I'd comment but am en route back to Japan in about a minute. If anyone has questions, for example anyone contemplating a sale of their own business, my inbox is always open. I'm going to be blogging a bit about the sale later but have been holding off to wait for it to finalize (handover day was last Monday) and attempting to not step on a forthcoming Starfighter announcement.
- PhilWright 11y ago
  How much time and effort was involved in selling the company? Did you need to engage an accountant or lawyer in order to provide documents for the buyers due diligence? Place domain names in escrow? Does this place a lower limit of the value of a company worth selling, because of the costs involved?
  - patio11 11y ago
    At least three weeks of full-time work, most caused because BCC was excessively entangled in my other businesses and disentangling them was not always straightforward. (Example: running on a VPS in the same Rackspace account used for AR's VPSes. Rackspace support was not responsive regarding account moves, so I ended up rebuilding an entire environment from metal at another provider then syncing/cutovering. Now multiply that by a sixty point checklist.) If I had had my affairs in better order it would have been closer to one week of work spread over a few weeks of calendar time. Most of the unskippable process was due diligence, which was a real eye opener. Imagine an ex-Goldman employee quizzing you about a CC chargeback which was reflected in Stripe but not in the revenue books, which he had discovered by examining every transaction for 12 months with a microscope. I'm told, somewhat to my surprise, that BCC was much better documented than most acquisitions handled by FEI, particularly in this price range. While the infra was lacking it was a major help to have nice clean books. I didn't get my accountant or lawyer involved aside from a mentioning that I was selling BCC, as it wouldn't have been cost-effective. The deal was executed on FEI's standard purchase agreement with 2~3 clauses added at the buyer's request. Yes, the domains were escrowed.
    - 11y ago
JacobAldridge 11y ago
I wonder what price could have been achieved had it been marketed as "Patio11's Bingo Card Creator" not "a well-established software business creating bingo cards for educational and recreational purposes". Patrick's 'brand' certainly has value, at least to me (I've learnt much valuable information from him over the years). And while homo economicus knows this brand doesn't change the underlying business fundamentals, especially as Patrick was exiting, I believe it would have created acquisition competition and therefore a higher multiple than Px3. The missing 'one more piece of information' in this instance may be Patrick's desire that BCC went 'to a good home', someone who saw potential in what it is, not bought it because of who he is. Either way, he's now had a successful exit! Congratulations (again) Patrick - feels like only yesterday you stepped out of your salaryman role https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1230156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1230156
- larrys 11y ago
  "I wonder what price could have been achieved had it been marketed as "Patio11's Bingo Card Creator" not "a well-established software business creating bingo cards for educational and recreational purposes"." Assuming it mattered, and I don't know if it does or not honestly, he may not have wanted it to be known that bcc did the amount of sales that it did because that could hurt his brand not help it. Not that he ever called it anything more than iirc "wee" but honestly I kind of expected that the sales and/or profit was more than what the sale page said and that assumes that sales have been going up and not down. As far as the patio11 brand that only matters to people on HN nobody in the rest of the world cares about that at all. All they care about is what the business will make and what the product is and what they see as the potential. Which, quite honestly given the product (and especially since Patrick ran it) seems nominal to me, given the amount of time it was in operation. Obviously there was a reason he didn't publicize the sale on HN and the brand. You can draw your own conclusions.
  - napoleond 11y ago
    > he may not have wanted it to be known that bcc did the amount of sales that it did Patrick has published annual BCC revenue, to the dollar, since it started: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/01/06/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2013/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/01/06/kalzumeus-software-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/12/29/bingo-card-creator-and-other-stuff-year-in-review-2012/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/12/29/bingo-card-creator-and-o... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-etc-year-in-review-2011/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-etc-y... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/12/17/bingo-card-creator-etc-year-in-review-2010/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/12/17/bingo-card-creator-etc-y... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/18/bingo-card-creator-year-in-review-2009/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/18/bingo-card-creator-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/12/21/bingo-card-creator-year-2008-in-review/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/12/21/bingo-card-creator-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/01/13/year-2007-stats-and-year-2008-goals/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/01/13/year-2007-stats-and-year... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/12/26/merry-christmas-part-2/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/12/26/merry-christmas-part-2/
irrigation 11y ago
I hinted at this a while back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9482269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9482269 There is, I think, an awful lot of bullshit that is paraded as fact on HN -- an endless series of aspirational stories of unending success and riches, then segued into pitching a book or web product/startup. I am a skeptical sort, and just because I think someone is seemingly a nice guy, or a part of the clique, doesn't turn me from the natural skepticism about incredible claims. People lie. People embellish. Many people can even contrive rationale for why doing that is okay. Human nature. I'm not trying to be overly negative, but I think these dreamy, sometimes delusional posts can lead people astray, thinking that they're missing out on some great riches that everyone else is claiming to be achieving.
- anon8418 11y ago
  Agreed, I think amongst HNers the idea that success can be achieved simply by using focused "analytics" and one's own smarts is particularly appealing.
- fweespeech 11y ago
  The reality is aspirational marketing works when you are building a personal brand. I wouldn't really say Patio11 embellishes or lies, I'd say he employs standard marketing techniques. I realize you may thing this as a "rationale" for why its okay but I don't think it is. Marketing and selective disclosure is a fact of life. If you don't read between the lines, it really is on you for most things in life regardless of the reality of the situation. Its a large part of why I'm in favor of regulation. Many, many people get screwed precisely because they can't read between the lines.
  - prawn 11y ago
    Or he had somewhat passive success with some SEO/other tricks and excitedly shared them to a good feedback loop. Works as marketing but I doubt marketing was his first thought.
    - seiji 11y ago
TerryADavis 11y ago
I hate this song. Simple Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5gvSzbSMNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5gvSzbSMNg Please give me a lobotomy. And can I suck yer dick? -------------- I heard a French guy on the radio very passionate, "Milk is for baby cows!"
dustyreagan 11y ago
Why did you choose to broker through feinternational, vs say flippa?
- facepalm 11y ago
  Or maybe even sell it through HN - so many people know patio11, maybe a buyer could have been found through the network?
- jadc 11y ago
  He commented on this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901
oskarth 11y ago
In this thread: people who are jealous of patio11's consulting rates and success, so they try to be "skeptical" (i.e. gratuitously negative) and do some kind of reductio ad absurdum about how it "doesn't make any sense" (i.e. he's being fiscally irresponsibly, or lying) to sell a business when he could "just grow it" (i.e. with no mental effort, cause it's magic to them anyway, or he's lying) or "just drop it" (cause who cares about what you do or leave behind when you have $$$ right?). Scratch all that jealousy. Grow up and be happy for his sake instead! HN is richer because of people like him. Here's my real comment on this news: Congratulations Patrick! I'm looking forward to hearing more about Starfighter. You said a few weeks ago a couple of months ago, so you better push something soon ;)
- blackoil 11y ago
  Alternatively, hn crowd is not prejudiced in evaluating anything. If bill gates, jobs, Zuckerberg can be critiqued, so can be patio11
  - PopeOfNope 11y ago
    Critiques have substance. Destructive criticism is just negativity for the sake of negativity. I do agree though, the bigger figures get their share of undeserved hate around here.
    - irrigation 11y ago
      the bigger figures get their share of undeserved hate around here The bigger figures become untouchable, above reproach, around here. There are some figures who are literally toxic, but because they've become a part of the core group they can get away with it. And if you doubt or question them, you must be a troll. This is fairly normal group behavior, of course. It's a "group is its own worst enemy" behavior. It's how groups become insular and delusional and self-supporting. The identification and vilification of external enemies. Religious veneration. HN in a nutshell. It would be an interesting exercise to remove names from comments for a while and see how they do. I suspect the exercise would surprise some people. Further, some of the biggest names around here are masters of self-promotion. As much as we can cheer on "transparency", it isn't so selfless when it's used to farm SEO, or to fish for consulting engagements. I'm actually surprised BCC didn't go for much more simply for the pagerank value. This post has fallen off the front page, with which it will be dominated by the herd and I expect a rapid moderation influx that sees anything other that raw praise fade to transparency.
ptype 11y ago
It would be interesting to know how much work is required to keep the business running. The multiple is quite low (3x profits) and to me the business seems already established (or even 'finished' if you allow the expression), so either I'm underestimating the amount of work that is required to keep it going, or there is another reason why patio11 would be so keen to offload it?
rmoriz 11y ago
Being late to the thread, so probably nobody will read it. Anyway: Looks like there are very few corporations out there, that are able and willing to buy such SaaS products. Remember how long 37Signals tried to get rid of their jobs-site and various non-Basecamp products? Nobody wanted to pay the price despite that the businesses were profitable. Maybe the USP of those products is tied to extensive niche knowledge and networking. Both is very hard to transfer. Potential acquirers usually know nothing about the market and also know, that they will need some very good developers and marketers to keep the revenue stream alive, because the previous owners really set a high benchmark for that. In both cases I personally would have tried to transfer the business to current employees in exchange for a commission based on the future revenues paid over 5 years. Both parties involved know how the business works and can project the future success better than everyone else out there. There is usually also enough trust and communication culture in place. However, this is not a "quick" exit and the seller is still connected to the business/people for a long time. That risk needs to be covered by the commission, of course.

292 points by pw 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

stephentmcm 11y ago

I don't get it why is this front-page and up voted 30+times?

jonathankoren 11y ago
It's from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901
bobbles 11y ago
he brought it up in a thread a few days ago, I'm guessing someone just went back through to find the page
gus_massa 11y ago
Patio11 is one of the local celebrities, his articles and comments are very interesting. He is currently the #3 user with more karma, just after tptacek and pg (the very site owner). Profile: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=patio11 "Author:patio11" in Algolia: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=all&query=author:patio11 https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byPopularity&prefix&page=0&date... "Patio11 fan club" in hnapp: http://hnapp.com/?q=author%3Apatio11%20%7C%20host%3Akalzumeus.com http://hnapp.com/?q=author%3Apatio11%20%7C%20host%3Akalzumeu...
- hellodevnull 11y ago
  I couldn't see pg in the leaders list but he does in fact have the second most karma (unless there are others missing from this list). https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders
SFjulie1 11y ago
it smells of multiple accounts :)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

pen2l 11y ago

Interestingly, does anyone remember lionhearted's posts from so long ago, where he pondered over the question why patio11 makes so little money, and why he charges so little? And the community reacted very fiercely, saying that he should let patio11 be -- he's doing his thing, money doesn't matter. And now patio11 is the posterboy for "charge more". How things change! It's kind of fascinating. Here's the HN discussion link: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1720244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1720244 And here's Sebastian's original post: http://sebastianmarshall.com/the-genius-and-tragedy-of-patrick-mckenzie http://sebastianmarshall.com/the-genius-and-tragedy-of-patri...

derefr 11y ago
> And now patio11 is the posterboy for "charge more" I'd say that, if Patrick had believed in charging more from the start, he wouldn't be nearly as outspoken about it now. It is presumably (close to) the #1 thing he wishes he could tell younger-Patrick—but, since he can't, he's telling everyone else who'll listen. Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder what Patrick would have to say to the HN community at the time, the one who stood up to defend his undervaluation-of-self? I mean, maybe they'd have defended him no matter what side of the coin he was on, given that he's a pretty central member of the HN "tribe"—but I'd be interested in a corollary post to the "charge more" posts that goes more like "don't praise people for charging less."
- zkhalique 11y ago
  so patio11, was lionhearted an influence on you?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    I have talked to Patrick at what I think he & I & Erin would agree is excruciating length on this subject and that name has never come up in those conversations. Many others have: Peldi, Amy Hoy, I think Brennan Dunn, and most especially Joel Spolsky.
    - 11y ago

mijustin 11y ago

I think this shows that software product valuations really are variable. People quote things like "2x revenue" all the way up to "15x revenue." If these stats are correct, patio11 sold his for roughly 1.8x yearly revenue. If revenue and margins stay stable, the new owner will recoup their investment in 3 years. This seems reasonable to me.

31reasons 11y ago
3 years in a very unpredictable field is a very long time. Anyone can come up with exactly the same product in much less time than before.
- cpayne 11y ago
  Not sure why this comment got downvoted without a reply. Anyway, I remember hearing the same argument when Youtube exploded. It's one thing to have a product (Bingo Cards, Youtube or whatever) but distribution and an existing client base is another.
- bigiain 11y ago
  That's true - what is gonna be much harder for any new competitor is to match BCC's SEO. Nine years worth of intelligent, diversified, and Google friendly reputation building is not going to be duplicated quickly. It wouldn't be an _impossible_ task to outcompete BCC I suspect, especially if the new owner just lets it coast and wind down instead of staying on top of the game (which Patrick readily admits he hasn't done for some time), but I suspect you'd probably need a PPC budget of around the same magnitude that the new owner just paid to kick-start a competitor - even if you already had production-ready code and a suitable hosting platform ready-to-go. I think you're right - in that assuming "it'll be paid off in three years" is a naive view of the way SaaS businesses age - but I also suspect there are already several "exactly the same product"s out there already, none of which have got the traction BCC has, and that the value here is not in a bunch of code that makes PDFs from lists, but in the business backend and the historical web presence and SEO.
  - 11y ago

anon8418 11y ago

I thought Patio11 was an A/B optimization, strategy god... Why did he abandon BCC? Reminds me of Tim Ferris and Rich Dad Poor Dad.... those guys make their money selling their brand, seminars, ebooks, etc. and not via the methods/techniques they preach.

URSpider94 11y ago
Opportunity cost. He has other projects that offer greater opportunity and which he is more passionate about. He's written about this repeatedly.
- anon8418 11y ago
  Passive recurring revenue sounds like a pretty good deal. Especially when you can plow idle hours (weekends, evenings, etc.) to "optimize" it. I'm not sure the opportunity costs are that high... especially when you're 1. Only spending a handful of hours on it (his claim) and 2. Your whole schtick for your consulting services is how you deserve $$$$ because using your A/B optimization whatever skills you can improve conversion/traction by xxxx%! He spent 9 years on BCC that resulted in ~30K (edited, misread as 60K) in ARR. I think his ideas and insights are valid. I just find it odd the contrast between his curated HN celebrity image as an uber-hacker with his actual results. Doesn't seem like his skills resulted in much success with BCC but it sure helps his consulting career... Sorry I'm the awkward guy at the party that makes people feel uncomfortable :)
  - fweespeech 11y ago
    Umm, I think it was only ~$30k ARR. "Yearly Revenue: $31,000" Where did you get $60k from?
  - true_religion 11y ago
    I don't know about the image of uber-hacker, but it would be fair to say that he's been seen as a very good marketer---both of BCC and his own skillset. Those skills are clearly that which people envy, even though it's not hacking.

patio11 11y ago

I'd comment but am en route back to Japan in about a minute. If anyone has questions, for example anyone contemplating a sale of their own business, my inbox is always open. I'm going to be blogging a bit about the sale later but have been holding off to wait for it to finalize (handover day was last Monday) and attempting to not step on a forthcoming Starfighter announcement.

PhilWright 11y ago
How much time and effort was involved in selling the company? Did you need to engage an accountant or lawyer in order to provide documents for the buyers due diligence? Place domain names in escrow? Does this place a lower limit of the value of a company worth selling, because of the costs involved?
- patio11 11y ago
  At least three weeks of full-time work, most caused because BCC was excessively entangled in my other businesses and disentangling them was not always straightforward. (Example: running on a VPS in the same Rackspace account used for AR's VPSes. Rackspace support was not responsive regarding account moves, so I ended up rebuilding an entire environment from metal at another provider then syncing/cutovering. Now multiply that by a sixty point checklist.) If I had had my affairs in better order it would have been closer to one week of work spread over a few weeks of calendar time. Most of the unskippable process was due diligence, which was a real eye opener. Imagine an ex-Goldman employee quizzing you about a CC chargeback which was reflected in Stripe but not in the revenue books, which he had discovered by examining every transaction for 12 months with a microscope. I'm told, somewhat to my surprise, that BCC was much better documented than most acquisitions handled by FEI, particularly in this price range. While the infra was lacking it was a major help to have nice clean books. I didn't get my accountant or lawyer involved aside from a mentioning that I was selling BCC, as it wouldn't have been cost-effective. The deal was executed on FEI's standard purchase agreement with 2~3 clauses added at the buyer's request. Yes, the domains were escrowed.
  - 11y ago

JacobAldridge 11y ago

I wonder what price could have been achieved had it been marketed as "Patio11's Bingo Card Creator" not "a well-established software business creating bingo cards for educational and recreational purposes". Patrick's 'brand' certainly has value, at least to me (I've learnt much valuable information from him over the years). And while homo economicus knows this brand doesn't change the underlying business fundamentals, especially as Patrick was exiting, I believe it would have created acquisition competition and therefore a higher multiple than Px3. The missing 'one more piece of information' in this instance may be Patrick's desire that BCC went 'to a good home', someone who saw potential in what it is, not bought it because of who he is. Either way, he's now had a successful exit! Congratulations (again) Patrick - feels like only yesterday you stepped out of your salaryman role https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1230156 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1230156

larrys 11y ago
"I wonder what price could have been achieved had it been marketed as "Patio11's Bingo Card Creator" not "a well-established software business creating bingo cards for educational and recreational purposes"." Assuming it mattered, and I don't know if it does or not honestly, he may not have wanted it to be known that bcc did the amount of sales that it did because that could hurt his brand not help it. Not that he ever called it anything more than iirc "wee" but honestly I kind of expected that the sales and/or profit was more than what the sale page said and that assumes that sales have been going up and not down. As far as the patio11 brand that only matters to people on HN nobody in the rest of the world cares about that at all. All they care about is what the business will make and what the product is and what they see as the potential. Which, quite honestly given the product (and especially since Patrick ran it) seems nominal to me, given the amount of time it was in operation. Obviously there was a reason he didn't publicize the sale on HN and the brand. You can draw your own conclusions.
- napoleond 11y ago
  > he may not have wanted it to be known that bcc did the amount of sales that it did Patrick has published annual BCC revenue, to the dollar, since it started: http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2014/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/12/22/kalzumeus-software-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/01/06/kalzumeus-software-year-in-review-2013/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/01/06/kalzumeus-software-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/12/29/bingo-card-creator-and-other-stuff-year-in-review-2012/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/12/29/bingo-card-creator-and-o... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-etc-year-in-review-2011/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/12/21/bingo-card-creator-etc-y... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/12/17/bingo-card-creator-etc-year-in-review-2010/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/12/17/bingo-card-creator-etc-y... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/18/bingo-card-creator-year-in-review-2009/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/12/18/bingo-card-creator-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/12/21/bingo-card-creator-year-2008-in-review/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/12/21/bingo-card-creator-year-... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/01/13/year-2007-stats-and-year-2008-goals/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/01/13/year-2007-stats-and-year... http://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/12/26/merry-christmas-part-2/ http://www.kalzumeus.com/2006/12/26/merry-christmas-part-2/

irrigation 11y ago

I hinted at this a while back - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9482269 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9482269 There is, I think, an awful lot of bullshit that is paraded as fact on HN -- an endless series of aspirational stories of unending success and riches, then segued into pitching a book or web product/startup. I am a skeptical sort, and just because I think someone is seemingly a nice guy, or a part of the clique, doesn't turn me from the natural skepticism about incredible claims. People lie. People embellish. Many people can even contrive rationale for why doing that is okay. Human nature. I'm not trying to be overly negative, but I think these dreamy, sometimes delusional posts can lead people astray, thinking that they're missing out on some great riches that everyone else is claiming to be achieving.

anon8418 11y ago
Agreed, I think amongst HNers the idea that success can be achieved simply by using focused "analytics" and one's own smarts is particularly appealing.
fweespeech 11y ago
The reality is aspirational marketing works when you are building a personal brand. I wouldn't really say Patio11 embellishes or lies, I'd say he employs standard marketing techniques. I realize you may thing this as a "rationale" for why its okay but I don't think it is. Marketing and selective disclosure is a fact of life. If you don't read between the lines, it really is on you for most things in life regardless of the reality of the situation. Its a large part of why I'm in favor of regulation. Many, many people get screwed precisely because they can't read between the lines.
- prawn 11y ago
  Or he had somewhat passive success with some SEO/other tricks and excitedly shared them to a good feedback loop. Works as marketing but I doubt marketing was his first thought.
  - seiji 11y ago

TerryADavis 11y ago

I hate this song. Simple Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5gvSzbSMNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5gvSzbSMNg Please give me a lobotomy. And can I suck yer dick? -------------- I heard a French guy on the radio very passionate, "Milk is for baby cows!"

dustyreagan 11y ago

Why did you choose to broker through feinternational, vs say flippa?

facepalm 11y ago
Or maybe even sell it through HN - so many people know patio11, maybe a buyer could have been found through the network?
jadc 11y ago
He commented on this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9588901

oskarth 11y ago

In this thread: people who are jealous of patio11's consulting rates and success, so they try to be "skeptical" (i.e. gratuitously negative) and do some kind of reductio ad absurdum about how it "doesn't make any sense" (i.e. he's being fiscally irresponsibly, or lying) to sell a business when he could "just grow it" (i.e. with no mental effort, cause it's magic to them anyway, or he's lying) or "just drop it" (cause who cares about what you do or leave behind when you have $$$ right?). Scratch all that jealousy. Grow up and be happy for his sake instead! HN is richer because of people like him. Here's my real comment on this news: Congratulations Patrick! I'm looking forward to hearing more about Starfighter. You said a few weeks ago a couple of months ago, so you better push something soon ;)

blackoil 11y ago
Alternatively, hn crowd is not prejudiced in evaluating anything. If bill gates, jobs, Zuckerberg can be critiqued, so can be patio11
- PopeOfNope 11y ago
  Critiques have substance. Destructive criticism is just negativity for the sake of negativity. I do agree though, the bigger figures get their share of undeserved hate around here.
  - irrigation 11y ago
    the bigger figures get their share of undeserved hate around here The bigger figures become untouchable, above reproach, around here. There are some figures who are literally toxic, but because they've become a part of the core group they can get away with it. And if you doubt or question them, you must be a troll. This is fairly normal group behavior, of course. It's a "group is its own worst enemy" behavior. It's how groups become insular and delusional and self-supporting. The identification and vilification of external enemies. Religious veneration. HN in a nutshell. It would be an interesting exercise to remove names from comments for a while and see how they do. I suspect the exercise would surprise some people. Further, some of the biggest names around here are masters of self-promotion. As much as we can cheer on "transparency", it isn't so selfless when it's used to farm SEO, or to fish for consulting engagements. I'm actually surprised BCC didn't go for much more simply for the pagerank value. This post has fallen off the front page, with which it will be dominated by the herd and I expect a rapid moderation influx that sees anything other that raw praise fade to transparency.

ptype 11y ago

It would be interesting to know how much work is required to keep the business running. The multiple is quite low (3x profits) and to me the business seems already established (or even 'finished' if you allow the expression), so either I'm underestimating the amount of work that is required to keep it going, or there is another reason why patio11 would be so keen to offload it?

rmoriz 11y ago

Being late to the thread, so probably nobody will read it. Anyway: Looks like there are very few corporations out there, that are able and willing to buy such SaaS products. Remember how long 37Signals tried to get rid of their jobs-site and various non-Basecamp products? Nobody wanted to pay the price despite that the businesses were profitable. Maybe the USP of those products is tied to extensive niche knowledge and networking. Both is very hard to transfer. Potential acquirers usually know nothing about the market and also know, that they will need some very good developers and marketers to keep the revenue stream alive, because the previous owners really set a high benchmark for that. In both cases I personally would have tried to transfer the business to current employees in exchange for a commission based on the future revenues paid over 5 years. Both parties involved know how the business works and can project the future success better than everyone else out there. There is usually also enough trust and communication culture in place. However, this is not a "quick" exit and the seller is still connected to the business/people for a long time. That risk needs to be covered by the commission, of course.