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One of my favorite professors in college was a self-confessed liar
- swombat 17y agoExcellent, excellent. Could this be applied on a wider scale, or would the loss of novelty dull the effect on students?
- tomjen2 17y agoI can't imagine the trick of the none lie would work more than once or twice (at least, before the students consider it an option that should be explored further) but I don't see how having the students trying to find the lies should stop working, assuming the professor doesn't have a problem with students who question him.
- xenophanes 17y agoWhy is the sibling to this (my) comment dead? I don't see anything horribly wrong with it!
- ynniv 17y agoI've seen this happen to users before. Looking at tomjen2's history, all comments from the last 11 days have been killed with 1 point. I take this to mean that they were killed quickly and automatically before anyone voted on them. Of course, if you aren't +showdead, you would never know.
- swombat 17y agoMy guess would be http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=936379 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=936379 had something to do with it.
- dschobel 17y agohttp://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=796014 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=796014 shhhh!
- xenophanes 17y agoI see. I think the "do not notify" policy is evil in most cases. Humans should not be treated like spam bots. Look how much time/effort he wasted writing perfectly legit comments afterwards.
- tierack 17y agoIt seems like it would only work for subjects where students have the capacity to figure out errors on their own. It would be disastrous in a foreign language class if you were told the word for "mother" was "banana". As I've mentioned in another discussion, I once had a math professor who would sneak in impossible problems into the homework (e.g. prove the continuum hypothesis). It worked very well to get us to spend countless hours just trying things out, and eventually to spur us to prove decidability of the problems, all of which made us much better. But I imagine it would get old fast if every class I took did something similar.
- iterationx 17y agoreminds me of a Monty Python skit
- pmiller2 17y agoNo it doesn't.
- dbz 17y agoAs soon as I read that comment I thought the exact same thing; however, I thought about it for math. Not above calculus level math (because the students in those classes should be smart enough to call something fishy out immediately), but high school or elementary school math. A simple lie could destroy a students math career. Especially one a day!
- amalcon 17y agoWhen I was In a numerical approximations course, one other student in the class and I managed to correct the professor about once a week. He wasn't deliberately lying; actually, it was because he had a very poor textbook to work with and was trusting it too much. We were just in the process of doing this again when he demonstrated that you can legitimately say O(n) when you mean O(n^2). Come to find out, he was a math prof, and very much not an algorithms guy. There are two versions of big-oh notation: one for algorithmic complexity, and one for accuracy of approximations. They are exact opposites of each other: higher numbers are "better" for approximation accuracy, at least in the sense they were used in the course. He was unaware of the former, but both of us were unaware of the latter. Not such a great teacher, no. Still, the last mistake was an entirely reasonable one. It's a great example of how even math students need to be on their toes.
- tetsuo13 17y agoI'm reminded of the reference book "Writing CGI Applications with Perl." In the introduction the author warned that there will be several purposeful mistakes in every chapter as an exercise to the reader to find and correct. Using this technique in a reference manual was bad enough but it made things even more difficult given that there was no key. I got rid of the book. Tough to learn from a book that lies.
- cyen 17y agoHow absurd. The best part of this learning technique is the discussion and the collaboration between students to solve the puzzle - you even learn by pointing out false positives, with someone correcting you and reinforcing that bit of information. A textbook / reference book is entirely different from a classroom - what was that author thinking?
- InclinedPlane 17y agoI think that author was thinking "hmm, how can I skip a long editorial fact-checking process without looking completely unprofessional."
- tetha 17y agoIn fact, this is happening to me right now around the third time in the row, and it still is interesting. However, in our case, this is happening, because this is the third time in a row we organized and talked a professor to give us a lecture around 6 people (which, at the moment, is 1/3 of all students in this term and study course). The conclusion is that the professor is not that prepared, and because the entire course is pretty math-heavy, errors in proofs and lemmas just slip in. Pretty often, they are just little typos, but it still is fun to hunt and spot them.
- quantumhobbit 17y agoSounds like a great teacher. I had a prof who was a bit more sadistic/incompetent about this. He would incorporate a falsehood into his lectures, not always and not always just one. When challenged he would admit it but if no one caught the mistake he would let us live on in ignorance. This was a fluid dynamics course so you could frequently find the "lie" by carefully going over the algebra in his derivations. I'm pretty sure this was just a clever ploy to conceal the fact that once in a while he did, in fact, make mistakes.
- yummyfajitas 17y agoI don't even try to conceal the fact that I make mistakes. I tell my students that I'll sometimes lie and often screw up, and that they shouldn't trust me. Sadly, they rarely listen. I'm told that 95% of what I say is right, and it's not worth the effort to figure out what falls into the remaining 5%.
- bugs 17y agoI find that most engineering teachers do this, at least in the upper level classes and especially to see if the class is paying attention. However the classes where it is done to see if people are paying attention are more often than not the classes that have a bad teacher who frequently makes mistakes, such as my dynamics teacher (thank god for hibbeler).
- xenophanes 17y agoHe claims to have learned that > "Experts" can be wrong While I agree with this, and enjoyed the story, the story does not make this particular point well. In the story, the lecturer is basically perfect. The expert lecturer remained fully in control of the situation at all times, had the students doing what he wanted, and was never wrong by accident. In general, imperfect experts can be wrong by accident, can lose control of situations, etc... It's common, but the linked story isn't an example of an expert going wrong.
- maudineormsby 17y agoThis comment is spot on. To add, this story is from the perspective of the student, so he gives his professor (his self-admitted favorite) a bit of a shine. Nothing wrong with that at all, but a salient point to remember. That aside, I wish I had more professors that engaged the students and not just the content of the lectures. Sounds like this professor loved to teach, which, IMO, is more valuable to the students than expert knowledge, at least at the undergraduate level.
- tvon 17y agoExcept his point isn't what you say it is. You quote only: > "Experts" can be wrong His point in its entirety is: > “Experts” can be wrong, and say things that sound right – so build a habit of evaluating new information and check it against things you already accept as fact. Emphasis mine.
- xenophanes 17y agoAgain, while that's a good lesson, the story doesn't teach it. The story only gives an example of evaluating new information when you're told it will contain a lie.
- dasil003 17y agoYou're nitpicking. Humans (and all animals) operate by constructing mental approximations and generalizations. This does in fact teach students not to trust authority.
- d0m 17y agoWhat a great strategy to help students focus -- and wow for the most difficult part.
- skolor 17y agoSimple things like this seem to be the most effective. This is particularly interesting, because it forces students to check what they (as a class) find most difficult, in order to find what they missed. From my experience, there seem to be two classes of professors, those that interact with the class, and those that don't. It is relatively easy for a professor to interact with and engage the class when the class is small, in the 20-30 student range. Personally, I don't care much for these classes because when the professor interacts with the class, all of the interaction becomes dominated by one or two students. Then there are the really good professors who teach a lecture-sized class, but still engage the students in the learning process. They have 50-100 students (or more), but still manage to get the students involved with learning. I have only had one professor do this particularly well, and I enjoyed his class far more than any of my others at the time. The interaction dynamic is very different in a class this sized. One or two students can't dominate the professor's attention, it just isn't possible.
- btilly 17y agoOne or two students can't dominate the professor's attention, it just isn't possible. You've clearly never seen me in a classroom setting. :-P
- benmathes 17y agoDo we really need to repost this story every few months?
- easyfrag 17y agoFirst I've seen it and I've been here almost 2 years, the value of a community like HN is the commentary on the links as much as the links themselves.
- chrischen 17y agoIt seems it would also be a great way to keep students from mindlessly repeating whatever they read or are taught.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- josephkern 17y agoI'm going to steal this for the ethics class I teach. Heh heh heh. Of course, I'm still trying to develop a grading curve based on game theory and economics. Given there are only enough points available for 10% of you to get A's, most of you will get B's, and some of you will get C's. OR all of you can work together to get B+'s. This probably wouldn't work. BUT I think it has possibilities ... Any ideas?
- Shamiq 17y agoThat's evil.
- shaddi 17y agoThere is a professor at my university who is known for doing something like this. He says for every exam that if /no one/ writes anything on the exam, everyone in the class will get an A on the exam. But, if one person writes anything on the exam, then he will grade all the exams normally. Apparently he's never had an entire class leave all their exams blank.
- antipaganda 17y agoHehehe. Prisoner's Dilemma, writ large.
- ghshephard 17y agoI'm surprised that nobody has pointed out yet(that I could find) The lie in that last lecture was: "Each of you has one falsehood in your lecture notes. "
- riobard 17y agoThis will be off topic, but ... what if he makes two lies in a class? :D
- joblessjunkie 17y ago"...an arousing melange of exasperated groans..." I'm pretty sure the author meant "rousing," but I think I prefer this more titillating version.
- tjstankus 17y agoI think President Bush used this technique as well. (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
- antipaganda 17y agoHe uses the more interesting "One thing in every one of my speeches will be true" technique. Makes for entertaining press conferences.
- mkyc 17y agoFor those, like me, wondering why this sounds eerily familiar: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=124386 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=124386 http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/my-favorite-lia.html http://www.overcomingbias.com/2008/02/my-favorite-lia.html It's great to see it posted again - though I do prefer that original overcoming bias version. I can only speculate as to why it received only 30 points two years ago. The key differences seem to be a) the linkbait title, b) the bolding of random sections within the post itself (which I found made it uglier to read) and c) the picture at the top of the post. Of course there's also d) we had fewer people. I don't know what it is, and maybe I'm mistaken, but it seems posts like this tend to attract a lot of low-signal comments. Perhaps this can be used to our advantage: every few weeks, pg could let a few really linkbaity and low-grade posts past the filters. Pictures of cats, or something equally fun but inane. Something from the top of Digg. Everyone who upvoted such a post would have their voting rights suspended. Would this help or harm the quality of posts here?
- swombat 17y agoPresentation is an important component in blogging as in other forms of presentation. The arrangement of whitespace in the original post made it harder to read. The intro line in the second version is far better than the nondescript blurb in the overcomingbias version. The picture is more appealing, and underlines the tagline. All of these things conspire to ensure that instead of 1 out of 10 people actually reading the post, perhaps 1 in 3 read it. The lesson: if you're going to publish great blog posts, make sure they're published in a great format that also drags the reader in.
- ojbyrne 17y agoThe defining characteristic of this story is not the lying part, but professors who deviate from strict curriculum and think about how best to make their students think. My particular canonical example - Literature and Criticism Seminar (An English course) - after 14 weeks of reading passages of poetry and prose and discussing them in class, our final exam was a wine-tasting exam. An opportunity to take the skills we had learned and apply them to a different domain, and have some fun. The class was very small (8 people) so it was easy for the professor to do this and not have to worry about evaluation issues.