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"Disrupting poverty" is a mostly solved problem in e.g. the Nordic countries. The solution is a strong social welfare net - which means the poor never fall into

by klipt 11y ago

"Disrupting poverty" is a mostly solved problem in e.g. the Nordic countries. The solution is a strong social welfare net - which means the poor never fall into absolute poverty - and high taxes to fund that net - which means the rich don't become as rich (doctors for example don't earn that much more than baristas, but medical school is free). Unfortunately most Americans wouldn't support the high taxes part. Remember when class mobility (i.e. not being poor just because you had poor parents) was the American dream? That dream is now far more alive in Denmark than in America.

nisse72 11y ago
Because many people responding seem to believe that there is no significant difference in salary between a barista and a doctor, here are some real numbers (monthly gross): Barista: http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Barista-523/ http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Barista-523/ GP: http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Husl%C3%A4kare-159078/ http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Husl%C3%A4kare-... The median barista is earning somewhat better than a living wage. The median GP earns 53% more than the barista, and can probably afford a small house in a nice area. Also note that the 90th percentile barista still earns less than the 10th percentile GP. Even Swedens high, progressive taxes do not fully compensate for this difference. (edit: english language links)
- inflagranti 11y ago
  That sounds about right (right in the sense as that probably how it is and right in the sense that IMHO that's a fair difference). Now would be really interesting to see the same numbers for the US and also have not just the salary but the take home pay after taxes.
  - nisse72 11y ago
    Mini tax table, for someone living in Stockholm (basic tax rates vary by local council): Gross: Net per month, SEK 15000: 12408 20000: 16080 25000: 19753 30000: 23424 35000: 26931 40000: 29827 45000: 32334 50000: 34842 55000: 37220 60000: 39374
    - wlievens 11y ago
      Is that take-home pay after a taxes? Is the left column the gross wage, or the cost of employment to the employer? Eitherway in Belgium you'd keep barely half of that. Seems like the Swedes get the better deal.
- nwmcsween 11y ago
  The wage for a GP in BC Canada is ~380,000...
chrissnell 11y ago
If doctors don't earn much more than baristas, why would I even bother putting myself through the hell that is medical school, free or not? I could skip it all and make almost as much pulling espresso shots. It makes no sense.
- IkmoIkmo 11y ago
  So a couple of things. First, doctors make more, way more. I'm born and raised in Europe and while wage inequality is smaller, it's not equal. For example, for a GP here in the Netherlands about 30% are salaried and make between 60k and 80k or so. The rest are mostly independent (have their own (co) practice) and make between 100 and 150k. (all euros). Meanwhile a Barista makes about 20k. So there's definitely a significant gap here. The difference is that in the US the gap tends to be slightly bigger, and the tax slightly lower at the higher end of income. Another difference is that education is highly subsidised: my college received about 12k or so per year for my tuition, 10k straight from the government, and 2k from me, and I - and everyone else - got a 2k a year loan from the government which is turned into a 100% gift if you graduate. I use this gift to pay my remaining 2k tuition fees, so tuition is totally free. I still borrowed because studying full-time leaves me not enough time to work to pay for a little over $1k a month on rent, food, insurance etc. But that debt is very small and also provided by the government at currently about 1.5% (it's always very low, don't think it ever beats inflation). This basically creates an incentive to become a doctor, without a risk of lifetime crushing debt. It also creates an opportunity for people to choose what they love to do. Money plays a role, obviously, and this is how market inefficiencies are kept in check, but it's not the sole factor. Now being a doctor obviously sucks in terms of working pressure. But there's still plenty of incentive to become one, but not enough incentive to work 80 hours a week like you may see in the US where you want to make mad bank because if you don't your student debt will crush you. I dare say it brings a bit of life/work balance to doctors, of whom as I gather live a pretty stressed and shitty life professionally. You'll quickly find though that if indeed studying is cheap, if indeed you can make a living as a barista to fall back on, you may as well pursue what you actually like to do, and for most people that's not pulling espresso shots. A system like that makes quite a bit of sense. As for the barista making just 20k... it seems low but the cool thing about large parts of Europe is that it's very affordable on low wages. For example if I didn't have so much equity (more than 30k or so) I would get a roughly $300 subsidy from the state for my $1000 rent. My insurance is just $90 or so, but the state pays me $80 for it. Primary, secondary and tertiary education was all de facto free and I was able to study at some top institutions in the world (both here and North America and Asia, without paying more). As a starting entrepreneur I get tons of tax cuts and barely pay tax right now, and if I lose my job I don't get silly foodstamps, I get like 80% of what the Barista makes as long as I show I'm applying for jobs. Yet there's plenty of incentive for me to strife and do better, up to a certain (quite high) point when taxes scales are such that it makes little sense working more hours, but doing more productive or valuable work is still very rewarding, which results in a very decent work life balance, health etc. In short, while Europe is very far from perfect, and while some countries have an easy position (e.g. Norway, resource rich, or the Netherlands, small and manageable), there is this tendency of Europeans to look at the US and think 'wtf?' when it comes to social and economic equality, work life balance, wage gaps, taxes, healthcare insurance, food stamps etc, which seem to be very poorly designed in the US, despite a tremendous amount of economic and sociological wisdom produced by American academia that ostensibly goes unnoticed by policy makers.
digi_owl 11y ago
Hate to say it but the Nordics are in the midst of dismantling their system, because neoliberal doctrine considers it inefficient.
- sampo 11y ago
  > Nordics are in the midst of dismantling their system Are we? Being a Nordic citizen, I'd like to hear more about this. Can you give me some pointers?
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Privatization and New Public Management are the key words. They take different forms in each nation but they all end up being about "free market good, government bad".
wyager 11y ago
Class mobility is clearly not alive in Denmark if a doctor barely makes any more than a barista. Everyone being forced into roughly the same class is not class mobility.
Gustomaximus 11y ago
Regarding the high taxes, this is a bit of a fallacy. See the tax table: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rate... It's more about getting value for money across he wider population in social support vs spending on a big military and government pushing funds to support the 0.001%
- joshuapants 11y ago
  The military spending thing is a bit of a canard. There is great value in US military hegemony, and that value is not experienced only by the US. There are downsides to it, but compared to having Russia prime in Europe and China prime in Asia it's the least bad option.
Artistry121 11y ago
One thing I noticed while in Denmark was that lifestyles, even among the middle class, are relatively poor by American standards. Late model cars or no cars at all, one tv per house, small houses, mostly homecooked meals... In a material ownership sense middle class Danes had less than many poor Americans. There was less of a focus on material wealth and a stronger focus on different forms of success instead - and of course the Danes didn't have to worry about college or healthcare. It seems possible for a family making less than $25,000 a year to easily surpass the level of wealth of most Danes I met and maintain insurance and a college fund for a state level school (with two years of community college to offest later costs). But in the United States the extreme focus on debt fueled spending (particularly on cars and houses) leads to not taking advantage of this. (Marketing is far more developed and everpresent in the United States than anywhere I've visited)
- Doctor_Fegg 11y ago
  > no cars at all That's not a poor lifestyle, that's a good lifestyle enhabled by sensibly designed cities. Bike around Copenhagen or sit in jams on the LA freeways? I know which I'd rather do.
  - Artistry121 11y ago
    I agree. Many middle class Danes still have less material wealth than most poor Americans. Whether material wealth buys happiness or a better lifestyle is a different question. In the US people have the option to live wonderful lives but also the freedom to screw up (and a system that encourages some screw ups). In Denmark that wonderful life is materially limited more but there is less freedom to screw up.
    - infinite8s 11y ago
      Also much of that material wealth is bought on (easy) credit.

by klipt 11y ago

nisse72 11y ago

Because many people responding seem to believe that there is no significant difference in salary between a barista and a doctor, here are some real numbers (monthly gross): Barista: http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Barista-523/ http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Barista-523/ GP: http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Husl%C3%A4kare-159078/ http://en-sv.statsskuld.se/lonestatistik/for-Husl%C3%A4kare-... The median barista is earning somewhat better than a living wage. The median GP earns 53% more than the barista, and can probably afford a small house in a nice area. Also note that the 90th percentile barista still earns less than the 10th percentile GP. Even Swedens high, progressive taxes do not fully compensate for this difference. (edit: english language links)

inflagranti 11y ago
That sounds about right (right in the sense as that probably how it is and right in the sense that IMHO that's a fair difference). Now would be really interesting to see the same numbers for the US and also have not just the salary but the take home pay after taxes.
- nisse72 11y ago
  Mini tax table, for someone living in Stockholm (basic tax rates vary by local council): Gross: Net per month, SEK 15000: 12408 20000: 16080 25000: 19753 30000: 23424 35000: 26931 40000: 29827 45000: 32334 50000: 34842 55000: 37220 60000: 39374
  - wlievens 11y ago
    Is that take-home pay after a taxes? Is the left column the gross wage, or the cost of employment to the employer? Eitherway in Belgium you'd keep barely half of that. Seems like the Swedes get the better deal.
nwmcsween 11y ago
The wage for a GP in BC Canada is ~380,000...

chrissnell 11y ago

If doctors don't earn much more than baristas, why would I even bother putting myself through the hell that is medical school, free or not? I could skip it all and make almost as much pulling espresso shots. It makes no sense.

IkmoIkmo 11y ago
So a couple of things. First, doctors make more, way more. I'm born and raised in Europe and while wage inequality is smaller, it's not equal. For example, for a GP here in the Netherlands about 30% are salaried and make between 60k and 80k or so. The rest are mostly independent (have their own (co) practice) and make between 100 and 150k. (all euros). Meanwhile a Barista makes about 20k. So there's definitely a significant gap here. The difference is that in the US the gap tends to be slightly bigger, and the tax slightly lower at the higher end of income. Another difference is that education is highly subsidised: my college received about 12k or so per year for my tuition, 10k straight from the government, and 2k from me, and I - and everyone else - got a 2k a year loan from the government which is turned into a 100% gift if you graduate. I use this gift to pay my remaining 2k tuition fees, so tuition is totally free. I still borrowed because studying full-time leaves me not enough time to work to pay for a little over $1k a month on rent, food, insurance etc. But that debt is very small and also provided by the government at currently about 1.5% (it's always very low, don't think it ever beats inflation). This basically creates an incentive to become a doctor, without a risk of lifetime crushing debt. It also creates an opportunity for people to choose what they love to do. Money plays a role, obviously, and this is how market inefficiencies are kept in check, but it's not the sole factor. Now being a doctor obviously sucks in terms of working pressure. But there's still plenty of incentive to become one, but not enough incentive to work 80 hours a week like you may see in the US where you want to make mad bank because if you don't your student debt will crush you. I dare say it brings a bit of life/work balance to doctors, of whom as I gather live a pretty stressed and shitty life professionally. You'll quickly find though that if indeed studying is cheap, if indeed you can make a living as a barista to fall back on, you may as well pursue what you actually like to do, and for most people that's not pulling espresso shots. A system like that makes quite a bit of sense. As for the barista making just 20k... it seems low but the cool thing about large parts of Europe is that it's very affordable on low wages. For example if I didn't have so much equity (more than 30k or so) I would get a roughly $300 subsidy from the state for my $1000 rent. My insurance is just $90 or so, but the state pays me $80 for it. Primary, secondary and tertiary education was all de facto free and I was able to study at some top institutions in the world (both here and North America and Asia, without paying more). As a starting entrepreneur I get tons of tax cuts and barely pay tax right now, and if I lose my job I don't get silly foodstamps, I get like 80% of what the Barista makes as long as I show I'm applying for jobs. Yet there's plenty of incentive for me to strife and do better, up to a certain (quite high) point when taxes scales are such that it makes little sense working more hours, but doing more productive or valuable work is still very rewarding, which results in a very decent work life balance, health etc. In short, while Europe is very far from perfect, and while some countries have an easy position (e.g. Norway, resource rich, or the Netherlands, small and manageable), there is this tendency of Europeans to look at the US and think 'wtf?' when it comes to social and economic equality, work life balance, wage gaps, taxes, healthcare insurance, food stamps etc, which seem to be very poorly designed in the US, despite a tremendous amount of economic and sociological wisdom produced by American academia that ostensibly goes unnoticed by policy makers.

digi_owl 11y ago

Hate to say it but the Nordics are in the midst of dismantling their system, because neoliberal doctrine considers it inefficient.

sampo 11y ago
> Nordics are in the midst of dismantling their system Are we? Being a Nordic citizen, I'd like to hear more about this. Can you give me some pointers?
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Privatization and New Public Management are the key words. They take different forms in each nation but they all end up being about "free market good, government bad".

wyager 11y ago

Class mobility is clearly not alive in Denmark if a doctor barely makes any more than a barista. Everyone being forced into roughly the same class is not class mobility.

Gustomaximus 11y ago

Regarding the high taxes, this is a bit of a fallacy. See the tax table: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rate... It's more about getting value for money across he wider population in social support vs spending on a big military and government pushing funds to support the 0.001%

joshuapants 11y ago
The military spending thing is a bit of a canard. There is great value in US military hegemony, and that value is not experienced only by the US. There are downsides to it, but compared to having Russia prime in Europe and China prime in Asia it's the least bad option.

Artistry121 11y ago

One thing I noticed while in Denmark was that lifestyles, even among the middle class, are relatively poor by American standards. Late model cars or no cars at all, one tv per house, small houses, mostly homecooked meals... In a material ownership sense middle class Danes had less than many poor Americans. There was less of a focus on material wealth and a stronger focus on different forms of success instead - and of course the Danes didn't have to worry about college or healthcare. It seems possible for a family making less than $25,000 a year to easily surpass the level of wealth of most Danes I met and maintain insurance and a college fund for a state level school (with two years of community college to offest later costs). But in the United States the extreme focus on debt fueled spending (particularly on cars and houses) leads to not taking advantage of this. (Marketing is far more developed and everpresent in the United States than anywhere I've visited)

Doctor_Fegg 11y ago
> no cars at all That's not a poor lifestyle, that's a good lifestyle enhabled by sensibly designed cities. Bike around Copenhagen or sit in jams on the LA freeways? I know which I'd rather do.
- Artistry121 11y ago
  I agree. Many middle class Danes still have less material wealth than most poor Americans. Whether material wealth buys happiness or a better lifestyle is a different question. In the US people have the option to live wonderful lives but also the freedom to screw up (and a system that encourages some screw ups). In Denmark that wonderful life is materially limited more but there is less freedom to screw up.
  - infinite8s 11y ago
    Also much of that material wealth is bought on (easy) credit.