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I don't disagree, and it will happen because it has to, or we all go out of business. But the article just seemed to me to paint too rosy a picture of a painles

by markbnj 11y ago

I don't disagree, and it will happen because it has to, or we all go out of business. But the article just seemed to me to paint too rosy a picture of a painless transition to renewables without actually getting into the really hard stuff. And by that I mean the things for which we currently have no replacement, or only early concepts of what a replacement might be for fossil fuels.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> And by that I mean the things for which we currently have no replacement, or only early concepts of what a replacement might be for fossil fuels. Can you expound on this? Biofuels will (hopefully) be used for aircraft (best case, algae produced at airports, converted into biofuels), and we can already create plastics from corn and other crops.
- markbnj 11y ago
  >> Can you expound on this? Biofuels will (hopefully) be used for aircraft (best case, algae produced at airports, converted into biofuels), and we can already create plastics from corn and other crops. The difference in energy density between bio- and fossil fuels is extraordinary. The very simple reason is that fossil fuels represent the concentrated results of millions of years of decaying biological material. I'm not sure there is enough accessible biomass on the planet to totally replace fossil fuels in their current applications.
  - marcosdumay 11y ago
    The difference in energy density of bio-fuels and the most dense liquid fossil fuels can be none depending on which one you choose. You know, ethanol is not the only bio-fuel.
    - markbnj 11y ago
      I wasn't very clear, I think. Yes, you can make higher density biodiesels and there are even denser biofuels on the horizon. What I mean to say was that you can't compare the accumulated energy of a few millions of years of biomass with what you can extract from what is growing on the planet right now, even if you could turn it all into fuel. The world is currently consuming around 100 million barrels of petroleum per day. http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=5&pid=5&aid=2 http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=5&pi...
      - marcosdumay 11y ago
        That's not really a valid concern in a thread about niche applications. Yes, we have a scale problem, and it must be fixed with renewables that scale, not with bio-fuels. The fact that the ones that scale are not fitted for niches is not reason to claim that we can't fulfill niches, and the fact that some niche fuels do not scale is not reason to claim that we can't get renewables at scale.
- jsymolon 11y ago
  the NorthEast is a big user of heating oil. Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. Solar isn't going to work either. Not enough daylight.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    > the NorthEast is a big user of heating oil. Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. Insulate your home properly. > Solar isn't going to work either. Not enough daylight. http://www.climatecentral.org/news/feds-largest-us-offshore-wind-farm-18604 http://www.climatecentral.org/news/feds-largest-us-offshore-...
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Just asking: How much insulation do typical homes have?
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    > Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. As I understand it, grid-powered geothermal heat pumps can replace a lot of it, at much greater efficiency. There's an upfront cost, sure, but I think its a fairly quick payoff even at current energy rates, much less if the externalities of fossil fuels were internalized into the rates.

by markbnj 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago

> And by that I mean the things for which we currently have no replacement, or only early concepts of what a replacement might be for fossil fuels. Can you expound on this? Biofuels will (hopefully) be used for aircraft (best case, algae produced at airports, converted into biofuels), and we can already create plastics from corn and other crops.

markbnj 11y ago
>> Can you expound on this? Biofuels will (hopefully) be used for aircraft (best case, algae produced at airports, converted into biofuels), and we can already create plastics from corn and other crops. The difference in energy density between bio- and fossil fuels is extraordinary. The very simple reason is that fossil fuels represent the concentrated results of millions of years of decaying biological material. I'm not sure there is enough accessible biomass on the planet to totally replace fossil fuels in their current applications.
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  The difference in energy density of bio-fuels and the most dense liquid fossil fuels can be none depending on which one you choose. You know, ethanol is not the only bio-fuel.
  - markbnj 11y ago
    I wasn't very clear, I think. Yes, you can make higher density biodiesels and there are even denser biofuels on the horizon. What I mean to say was that you can't compare the accumulated energy of a few millions of years of biomass with what you can extract from what is growing on the planet right now, even if you could turn it all into fuel. The world is currently consuming around 100 million barrels of petroleum per day. http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=5&pid=5&aid=2 http://www.eia.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/IEDIndex3.cfm?tid=5&pi...
    - marcosdumay 11y ago
      That's not really a valid concern in a thread about niche applications. Yes, we have a scale problem, and it must be fixed with renewables that scale, not with bio-fuels. The fact that the ones that scale are not fitted for niches is not reason to claim that we can't fulfill niches, and the fact that some niche fuels do not scale is not reason to claim that we can't get renewables at scale.
jsymolon 11y ago
the NorthEast is a big user of heating oil. Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. Solar isn't going to work either. Not enough daylight.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > the NorthEast is a big user of heating oil. Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. Insulate your home properly. > Solar isn't going to work either. Not enough daylight. http://www.climatecentral.org/news/feds-largest-us-offshore-wind-farm-18604 http://www.climatecentral.org/news/feds-largest-us-offshore-...
- DanBC 11y ago
  Just asking: How much insulation do typical homes have?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Tell me what i can do to replace 800 gallons of oil a year. As I understand it, grid-powered geothermal heat pumps can replace a lot of it, at much greater efficiency. There's an upfront cost, sure, but I think its a fairly quick payoff even at current energy rates, much less if the externalities of fossil fuels were internalized into the rates.