4 ms·

(1) Germany is profiting billions from the current exchange rate, that's why it isn't losing anything. (2) Which would fuck with the EU a lot more than it woul

(1) Germany is profiting billions from the current exchange rate, that's why it isn't losing anything. (2) Which would fuck with the EU a lot more than it would bother Greece, which is why they're making the stand that they are, they know they have less to lose. There's a reason they haven't been kicked out already. ;)

mafribe 11y ago
(1) I see no evidence of this. The ECB's flooding the world with Euros clearly inflates away net savers' wealth. (2) I agree that that's the game Greece has been playing. But it's perfectly compatible with what I said.
- eli_gottlieb 11y ago
  > (1) I see no evidence of this. The ECB's flooding the world with Euros clearly inflates away net savers' wealth. Germany makes its money on manufactured-goods exports, though, so an artificially cheap currency helps them.
  - mafribe 11y ago
    But the artificially cheap currency comes about because savers' savings are being inflated away. Moreover it's unlikely that the money lent to Greece will ever come back. I don't see any evidence that in balance Germany benefits from this. Have you got any?
    - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
      German workers trying to save lose. German capitalists making their money on exports and investing it by loaning it out win.
      - mafribe 11y ago
        Given that the latter, unlike the former, is a very small number, you've not succeeded in explaining how Germany is benefitting.
        coldtea 11y ago
        In that Germany, as a state, could not give a fuck about Germans. As any other state, it's all about the national rich people making a killing.
        mafribe 11y ago
        How does resentment-fuelled classwar!-style rhetoric contribute to this discussion?
        coldtea 11y ago
        In that it's an accurate description of the state of the world. Knowing what we do about human history, why would you assume that kindness-filled all-classes-living-in-harmony! rhetoric has much descriptive power? With a king, a feudal lord or a pharaoh you can see the "class" thing and the exploitation immediately -- why think that with a modern man that has 1000x times the money and resources of his fellow citizens it's any different? Because democracy?
- atmosx 11y ago
  Here: https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/07/germany-biggest-winner-euro-fixed-exchange-rates.html https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/07/germany-biggest-win...
  - mafribe 11y ago
    That's a dreadful article. "Germany is still exporting like gangbusters [to Greece] despite the poor country being in its fifth year of recession. In fact, Germany’s trade surplus per person with Greece is 3.6 times bigger than that with the U.S. (290 euro per Greek versus 81 euro per American)." Given that Greece is 'paying' for these imports with borrowed money, which is unlikely ever to be paid back, how is this setup benefitting? Exports deficits are benefitting the exporter only if eventually the importers pay. But we are seeing that the importers are unwilling/unable to pay. Moreover the article says Euro itself collapsed, resulting in Germany’s higher positive trade balance. Well, the Euro collapsed for everybody, so all other Euro members had exactly the same benefit.
    - atmosx 11y ago
      You wrote: > Given that Greece is 'paying' for these imports with borrowed money, which is unlikely ever to be paid back, how is this setup benefitting? > Well, the Euro collapsed for everybody, so all other Euro members had exactly the same benefit. I don't know if you're trolling me or not. Maybe you should read a little bit about the context before engaging into similar discussions. A few good starting points: Macronomics: http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics-3rd-Edition-Paul-Krugman/dp/1429283432/ref=zg_bs_2596_1 http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics-3rd-Edition-Paul-Krugma... [2] http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global-Crisis-ebook/dp/B005GSYZRA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432284607&sr=1-1&keywords=currency+wars http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global-Crisis-ebo... Also read about public debts what they are and how they did evolve. Finally, you're looking financial answers to a political problem. Strictly financially speaking, debt restructuring is the only sensible solution to Greece AND everyone else. What you're watching, is a live show of poor justifications from failed politicians (all over the EU).

mafribe 11y ago

(1) I see no evidence of this. The ECB's flooding the world with Euros clearly inflates away net savers' wealth. (2) I agree that that's the game Greece has been playing. But it's perfectly compatible with what I said.

eli_gottlieb 11y ago
> (1) I see no evidence of this. The ECB's flooding the world with Euros clearly inflates away net savers' wealth. Germany makes its money on manufactured-goods exports, though, so an artificially cheap currency helps them.
- mafribe 11y ago
  But the artificially cheap currency comes about because savers' savings are being inflated away. Moreover it's unlikely that the money lent to Greece will ever come back. I don't see any evidence that in balance Germany benefits from this. Have you got any?
  - eli_gottlieb 11y ago
    German workers trying to save lose. German capitalists making their money on exports and investing it by loaning it out win.
    - mafribe 11y ago
      Given that the latter, unlike the former, is a very small number, you've not succeeded in explaining how Germany is benefitting.
      - coldtea 11y ago
        In that Germany, as a state, could not give a fuck about Germans. As any other state, it's all about the national rich people making a killing.
        mafribe 11y ago
        How does resentment-fuelled classwar!-style rhetoric contribute to this discussion?
        coldtea 11y ago
        In that it's an accurate description of the state of the world. Knowing what we do about human history, why would you assume that kindness-filled all-classes-living-in-harmony! rhetoric has much descriptive power? With a king, a feudal lord or a pharaoh you can see the "class" thing and the exploitation immediately -- why think that with a modern man that has 1000x times the money and resources of his fellow citizens it's any different? Because democracy?
atmosx 11y ago
Here: https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/07/germany-biggest-winner-euro-fixed-exchange-rates.html https://www.creditwritedowns.com/2012/07/germany-biggest-win...
- mafribe 11y ago
  That's a dreadful article. "Germany is still exporting like gangbusters [to Greece] despite the poor country being in its fifth year of recession. In fact, Germany’s trade surplus per person with Greece is 3.6 times bigger than that with the U.S. (290 euro per Greek versus 81 euro per American)." Given that Greece is 'paying' for these imports with borrowed money, which is unlikely ever to be paid back, how is this setup benefitting? Exports deficits are benefitting the exporter only if eventually the importers pay. But we are seeing that the importers are unwilling/unable to pay. Moreover the article says Euro itself collapsed, resulting in Germany’s higher positive trade balance. Well, the Euro collapsed for everybody, so all other Euro members had exactly the same benefit.
  - atmosx 11y ago
    You wrote: > Given that Greece is 'paying' for these imports with borrowed money, which is unlikely ever to be paid back, how is this setup benefitting? > Well, the Euro collapsed for everybody, so all other Euro members had exactly the same benefit. I don't know if you're trolling me or not. Maybe you should read a little bit about the context before engaging into similar discussions. A few good starting points: Macronomics: http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics-3rd-Edition-Paul-Krugman/dp/1429283432/ref=zg_bs_2596_1 http://www.amazon.com/Macroeconomics-3rd-Edition-Paul-Krugma... [2] http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global-Crisis-ebook/dp/B005GSYZRA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1432284607&sr=1-1&keywords=currency+wars http://www.amazon.com/Currency-Wars-Making-Global-Crisis-ebo... Also read about public debts what they are and how they did evolve. Finally, you're looking financial answers to a political problem. Strictly financially speaking, debt restructuring is the only sensible solution to Greece AND everyone else. What you're watching, is a live show of poor justifications from failed politicians (all over the EU).