3 ms·

Not to be a jerk, but "[Copernicus] was forced into it, because it was the only way to make the numbers come out right" just isn't correct. Tycho Brahe's measu

by haon99 17y ago

Not to be a jerk, but "[Copernicus] was forced into it, because it was the only way to make the numbers come out right" just isn't correct. Tycho Brahe's measurements showed that Ptolemy's model was more accurate than Copernicus's. The point still stands that Copernicus transcended his time, but he was really riding on the coattails of Ptolemy's genius. Ptolemy never gets enough credit...

stcredzero 17y ago
Really, Copernicus' accomplishment was that his model worked very well yet left out a huge heap of epicycles. Heliocentric = fewer epicycles. That was Copernicus' contribution. This pales in comparison to Kepler's "Equal areas in equal time." That observation is a very strong hint towards Newtonian mechanics and Calculus.
- jimbokun 17y ago
  This makes me think of over-fitting in machine learning algorithms. The epicycles fit the data very well, but added a lot of parameters to the model. It makes me wonder if there is a bias/variance trade off for scientific models, but I don't know how to express the connection formally. In machine learning algorithms, we hold out a dataset to test for over-fitting. We don't exactly have a spare universe to test our scientific models for over-fitting, but maybe if there were a second planetary system at the time to test against it would have been clear sooner that the "epicycles" model fit only this solar system from the vantage point of earth? Maybe you could "train" the model on some heavenly bodies, then test on others? I'm pretty sure I'm making a fool of myself at this point and missing something obvious, and I'm hoping one or more of you will point that obvious thing out to me.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    Kepler's ellipses fit the data with an even simpler model. Newton added an underlying model which could be generalized to hypothetical bodies. In other words, you could plan something like an Apollo mission with it. I doubt you could do something like that with the Copernican, Ptolemaic, or even the Keplerian model. Newton's model gave you enough insight to hack. And not just surface hacks, but deep hacks. Everything before was merely descriptive. Newton's model also showed convergence. The way the planets moved became connected with the way cannonballs behaved. Mechanics could also subsume models of buildings and machines. Engineering and architecture were unified by Newtonian Mechanics. It's not just a matter fitting. It's a matter of transcending current models. (Another reason to study different programming languages/paradigms.)
    - jimbokun 17y ago
      I think you've hit on a weakness of the whole Machine Learning paradigm. I might get this wrong, but I believe every machine learning algorithm necessarily introduces some bias into selecting which possibilities to consider, and without some kind of bias, learning is impossible. But once you've chosen how you will bias your model, you are only going to search for solutions in the space defined by that bias. So, figuring out the parameters of the ellipses describing the movement of heavenly bodies, but not questioning whether ellipses are a good choice to begin with. There is also feature selection, how you decide which aspects of reality (or measurements of reality, actually) are relevant to the learning problem. (There are feature selection techniques, but that presumes you already have a finite set of candidate features and then determine which ones have the most value.) It seems that, perhaps, this kind of paradigm busting discovery is out of reach of current machine learning methods, and that the kinds of decisions about what to model and how to bias your model is where humans add value to the process. This is all philosophical bullshit at this point, but I remain curious about the relationship between learning algorithms and scientific discovery. If anyone is still reading, are there any good books on this topic?
- moss 17y ago
  Actually, strictly speaking, Copernicus's system has more epicycles that Ptolemy's (or at least no fewer, depending on how you work out the details of it). Copernicus's big win is getting rid of the equant, easily the most mathematically ugly thing in the Ptolemaic system. The equant has a planet moving in a circle around one point, but moving uniformly from the perspective of a different point--essentially a way to avoid the restriction to uniform circular motion. It's a cheap hack, and it's the flaw that drove Copernicus away from Ptolemy in the first place. Or anyway, it looks like a cheap hack, until Kepler comes along and realizes that it's hinting at, as you said, "equal areas in equal time". So I guess what I mean to say is: yeah, Kepler's pretty awesome. (Sorry, don't mind me. I just spent way too much time reading Ptolemy in college, and I have no reason to believe there will ever be another opportunity to apply that bit of my education.)

by haon99 17y ago

stcredzero 17y ago

Really, Copernicus' accomplishment was that his model worked very well yet left out a huge heap of epicycles. Heliocentric = fewer epicycles. That was Copernicus' contribution. This pales in comparison to Kepler's "Equal areas in equal time." That observation is a very strong hint towards Newtonian mechanics and Calculus.

jimbokun 17y ago
This makes me think of over-fitting in machine learning algorithms. The epicycles fit the data very well, but added a lot of parameters to the model. It makes me wonder if there is a bias/variance trade off for scientific models, but I don't know how to express the connection formally. In machine learning algorithms, we hold out a dataset to test for over-fitting. We don't exactly have a spare universe to test our scientific models for over-fitting, but maybe if there were a second planetary system at the time to test against it would have been clear sooner that the "epicycles" model fit only this solar system from the vantage point of earth? Maybe you could "train" the model on some heavenly bodies, then test on others? I'm pretty sure I'm making a fool of myself at this point and missing something obvious, and I'm hoping one or more of you will point that obvious thing out to me.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  Kepler's ellipses fit the data with an even simpler model. Newton added an underlying model which could be generalized to hypothetical bodies. In other words, you could plan something like an Apollo mission with it. I doubt you could do something like that with the Copernican, Ptolemaic, or even the Keplerian model. Newton's model gave you enough insight to hack. And not just surface hacks, but deep hacks. Everything before was merely descriptive. Newton's model also showed convergence. The way the planets moved became connected with the way cannonballs behaved. Mechanics could also subsume models of buildings and machines. Engineering and architecture were unified by Newtonian Mechanics. It's not just a matter fitting. It's a matter of transcending current models. (Another reason to study different programming languages/paradigms.)
  - jimbokun 17y ago
    I think you've hit on a weakness of the whole Machine Learning paradigm. I might get this wrong, but I believe every machine learning algorithm necessarily introduces some bias into selecting which possibilities to consider, and without some kind of bias, learning is impossible. But once you've chosen how you will bias your model, you are only going to search for solutions in the space defined by that bias. So, figuring out the parameters of the ellipses describing the movement of heavenly bodies, but not questioning whether ellipses are a good choice to begin with. There is also feature selection, how you decide which aspects of reality (or measurements of reality, actually) are relevant to the learning problem. (There are feature selection techniques, but that presumes you already have a finite set of candidate features and then determine which ones have the most value.) It seems that, perhaps, this kind of paradigm busting discovery is out of reach of current machine learning methods, and that the kinds of decisions about what to model and how to bias your model is where humans add value to the process. This is all philosophical bullshit at this point, but I remain curious about the relationship between learning algorithms and scientific discovery. If anyone is still reading, are there any good books on this topic?
moss 17y ago
Actually, strictly speaking, Copernicus's system has more epicycles that Ptolemy's (or at least no fewer, depending on how you work out the details of it). Copernicus's big win is getting rid of the equant, easily the most mathematically ugly thing in the Ptolemaic system. The equant has a planet moving in a circle around one point, but moving uniformly from the perspective of a different point--essentially a way to avoid the restriction to uniform circular motion. It's a cheap hack, and it's the flaw that drove Copernicus away from Ptolemy in the first place. Or anyway, it looks like a cheap hack, until Kepler comes along and realizes that it's hinting at, as you said, "equal areas in equal time". So I guess what I mean to say is: yeah, Kepler's pretty awesome. (Sorry, don't mind me. I just spent way too much time reading Ptolemy in college, and I have no reason to believe there will ever be another opportunity to apply that bit of my education.)