5 ms·

Wireless Das Keyboard Modification

54 points by rayshan 11y ago

chimeracoder 11y ago
> As someone with an affinity for both wireless devices and mechanical keyboards, I am saddened that wireless mechanical keyboards are few and far between. There are two reasons for this. First, mechanical keyboards are generally larger than other keyboards, which makes them less portable. Secondly, mechanical keyboards are oftentimes used by professional gamers, and for their use case, wireless just doesn't cut it. Higher latency (and more importantly - higher variance latency), as well as multi-key rollover[0] That said, as someone who owns two Das keyboards and hates typing on laptop keyboards (or, worse, on tablet screens), I'm very happy to see this! [0] Even the Das keyboards don't support n-key rollover over USB; you need to use PS/2 cables, IIRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29
- archagon 11y ago
  I think "professional" gamers tend to be needlessly fussy about their equipment. I beat Super Meat Boy 100% with a wireless gamepad with no issues at all. I also use a wireless gaming mouse to play Counter-Strike and other FPS. These are both Logitech products so they use their own receivers instead of Bluetooth (presumably for better performance), but it looks like this keyboard mod is doing the same thing.
  - rcthompson 11y ago
    I know someone who looked into Logitech's wireless protocol. He said it was just Bluetooth with some magic numbers changed to separate it from real Bluetooth.
    - archagon 11y ago
      Maybe, but I do know that Logitech differentiates between their normal wireless peripherals and their gaming peripherals, especially in regards to products like the 500hz G602 mouse.
  - nightski 11y ago
    For me it is batteries. Why deal with connection issues/batteries for a peripheral that never leaves the desk? Seems ridiculous.
    - archagon 11y ago
      My mouse lasts about a month, and I much prefer the experience to getting my movement occasionally (frequently) cramped by a rigid cable!
      - nacs 11y ago
        If its a frequent problem, you can use a mouse bungee [1] [2] [3] to prevent it. They're targeted at the gaming crowd and most "pro gamers" use those. I'm sure you could rig up a cheaper solution with sticky tape or something if you don't want to buy one. [1]: http://i.imgur.com/l8Ynobn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/l8Ynobn.jpg [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Bungee-Management-Fixer-Holder/dp/B00IE00HTW/ http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Bungee-Management-Fixer-Holder/d... (~$9) [3]: http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-Galeru-EAC-MSB001/dp/B00BOVOED8/ http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-Galeru-EAC-MSB0... (~$20)
      - monochromatic 11y ago
        Yeah but a mouse moves in use. A keyboard just sits there. I don't understand the allure of wireless keyboards.
      - DrStalker 11y ago
        For me the big problem isn't battery life, it's cats deciding to knock the mouse onto the floor and hide it. A wired mouse makes this very easy to fix!
      - Moru 11y ago
        Trick from old dog: When using wired keyboard with wired mouse, use the cable-binder that came with either device to bind the two cables together leaving enough length of the mouse cable so it can move freely. This has the added advantage that your mouse cable won't break as fast because of movement.
  - Dewie3 11y ago
    There is no need for scare quotes since professional gamers are a thing. Unless you meant serious or hardcore gamers, in which case I don't know why you didn't just write that. I don't think professionals are playing SMB. CS though, probably.
    - archagon 11y ago
      Sure, but real professional gamers are few and far between. It would be a stretch to claim that their fairly unique peripheral needs are the reason why wireless keyboards are scarce in general. No — I think it's exactly the scare-quote professional gamers who scoff at things like wireless keyboards and keep them from becoming popular. I didn't write serious or hardcore because I was responding to the language in the parent post. And I mentioned SMB because it's a game that really tests your reflexes.
      - darkerside 11y ago
        Fair point, and that's what you should have responded to the parent post with. Making an irrelevant remark about non-professional gamers came off as quite condescending.
        archagon 11y ago
        Sorry, I guess I'm just annoyed at all the armchair professional gamers on /r/games talking about what's supposedly best for everyone and whatnot.
      - lawl 11y ago
        I don't think the problem is necessarily the latency. But with wireless keyboard/mouse I sometimes had the issue of a key not beeing registered, or a fast mouse movement. Sometimes just randomly or when the batteries were getting low. For regular use that's not too much of a problem, as it happens rarely, but even for somewhat serious gaming that's not acceptable, as it can cost you hours of progression, a lost match or whatever.
- noeleon 11y ago
  New Das Keyboards do support nKey Rollover via USB [1]. [1]: http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/ http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/
  - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
    Older das keyboards supported 6-key rollover via USB (running into protocol limits) or 12-key rollover via PS/2, IIRC.
  - darklajid 11y ago
    Interesting that this site states Just press shift + mute to toggle NKRO. I understand why you would want this enabled. I'm not sure I understand the negative implications, so - what are potential reasons to _disable_ that?
    - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
      That is curious. Relying on an extra driver? Acting like multiple keyboards on a USB hub to work around USB protocol limitations, possibly causing complications or weirdness? </wildlyguessing>
      - xorcist 11y ago
        Some BIOSes doesn't work with NKRO enabled. If yours does, you can safely enable it.
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  Latency is bad, but it's pretty trivial to build a short range ultra-low-bandwidth wireless connection that will never have a latency of 1ms or greater. And for a human inputting via a mechanical device into a desktop operating system, that's as good as zero. The default on a USB keyboard is polling every several milliseconds anyway.
  - ksk 11y ago
    If it is so trivial, then why do all wireless keyboards not do this?
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      Do they not? Probably because they're using simpler chips and they're conserving battery power instead of sending the message at 5x the necessary strength every tenth of a millisecond. Or because they're hooked up to USB, or using 5ms of debouncing anyway, so the extra bit of latency isn't enough for them to care.
    - Encosia 11y ago
      I can't remember using a wireless keyboard in the last decade that had any noticeable latency. Even a cheap HP Wireless Elite that I tried on a whim recently had no visible latency as I typed.
- Nullabillity 11y ago
  I'd like to know, on the other hand, what's the supposed benefit of wireless? On a laptop the cable length shouldn't be an issue anyway, and on a desktop you can, in the worst case, get an extension cable for a couple of bucks. And what do you get in exchange? Batteries that need to be swapped and slightly (though arguably neglegible) worse performance.
  - kedean 11y ago
    Well, no cables, for one. It's not a huge complaint, but fewer cables on the desk is a beautiful thing. Also, easier transport.
- walterbell 11y ago
  Goldtouch (IBM/Lexmark heritage) makes a foldable bluetooth ergonomic mechanical keyboard, http://www.goldtouch.com/go2-goes-wireless/ http://www.goldtouch.com/go2-goes-wireless/ & http://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-Wireless-Bluetooth-Mobile-Keyboard/dp/B00GXPIFTE http://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-Wireless-Bluetooth-Mobile-Ke...
  - Splendor 11y ago
    Wow, that ball joint is pretty ingenious. Thanks for sharing.
  - melling 11y ago
    That has a scissor switch like on most Mac keyboards. It doesn't have Cherry MX switches like those found on the Das Keyboards.
- Encosia 11y ago
  I've love to see some sort of blind visual latency test between a wired and quality wireless keyboard. I've been using wireless keyboards since around 2005, am fairly allergic to latency in any device, but couldn't imagine going back to the shackles of a wired keyboard or mouse now.
clebio 11y ago
I'm confused as why you wouldn't just use a USB breakout board and a bluetooth or serial modem (e.g. [1]). Having to desolder every key seems like an immense amount of work and risk of error. At any rate, an awesome hack. I love my Das Keyboard, and wireless wouldn't hurt (gaming isn't my use-case). [1]: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12700 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12700
- nacs 11y ago
  Perhaps it would help with latency a bit? Key signal > USB > Wireless vs Key signal > Wireless
entee 11y ago
I too wish there were more out of the box solutions for these. I also wish more keyboards separated the keypad from the main keyboard. I like to stay centered in front of the monitor, which means necessarily the number pad makes the whole thing asymmetrical and knocks into the mouse (I have a very narrow desk). I'm surprised they're not more common, because many of my programmer friends also prefer mechanical keyboards. At that point latency seems irrelevant? It doesn't appear mechanical keyboards are intrinsically less suited to being wireless...
- abroncs 11y ago
  There are quite a few tenkeylenss or 60% boards that exist for this very reason.
sashk 11y ago
I have different problem - keyboard I love doesn't come as wired keyboard, only wireless. I want something to turn into wired one. Why? Because wireless microsoft keyboards aren't secure. And I'm talking about Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard...
PebblesHD 11y ago
An interesting project, and a nice result, but I'm curious about the goal of not having inscriptions on the keys? You may not look down at the keyboard when typing but what if someone else needs to use it or for whatever reason you cant focus? It seems like needless one-upping, even their website seems to acknowledge that its really only for showing off...
- jen729w 11y ago
  If nothing else, it means they can make one version without annoying half the population - in this case me, as a Mac user. It's simple enough to remap the Ctrl/Win/Alt cluster to their Mac equivalents. It's also forced me to be a better touch-typist; I'd never really bothered learning the numbers up until now. I didn't even realise it but I was looking down at them each time I needed them. No more! Aaaaand it does look cool.
  - Encosia 11y ago
    To be fair, using PC keys might annoy ~10% of the population if you include Linux users, not half. They actually make an Apple version of the variant that does have printed keycaps. But yeah, the stated purpose of the blank keycaps is to force you to become a better typist (citation needed as to whether it actually works).
- djtriptych 11y ago
  I own an unlabeled Das and I did find it helped me type because it completely takes away the ability to cheat. I ended up having to learn how to type a lot of special symbols w/o cheating.
  - PebblesHD 11y ago
    Fair enough, I hadn't really considered the learning aspect that you and @jen729w mention. Neat!
- GuiA 11y ago
  I have a keyboard without key inscriptions. I prioritize aesthetics over other people being able to use my keyboard (and using a non-conventional layout, most people would be confused by my keyboard anyway).
mrmondo 11y ago
If you really want to make your Das wireless - why not just use a wireless USB hub?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
darklajid 11y ago
Off-topic, but something that surprised me: This site comes up blank/empty here. I assume it's ublock - haven't tested that. I did look at the source of the page and .. whoa. Can someone explain to me what meta og:description (more or less the whole text, I guess) meta itemprop="description" (as above, a full copy) meta twitter:descrption (a third one..) are? Is that normal? Sane? I've never seen that before. Plus, meta description is .. present but empty. The body starts roughly 600 lines into the document.
- bdchauvette 11y ago
  og:description is metadata for facebook's OpenGraph. [1] twitter:description one is metadata for Twitter Cards. [2] itemprop="description" is metadata in the microdata format [3] ---- [1] http://ogp.me/ http://ogp.me/ [2] https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview [3] https://schema.org/docs/gs.html https://schema.org/docs/gs.html
  - darklajid 11y ago
    I know I'll pay for derailing this, but thanks a lot. My biggest confusion was that these overlap so much, and that they contain the full content. Again, apologies. I just got curious and was hoping the author might share why this is the case. Even after following your links I'm confused, but - I got the gentle nudge and understand that this isn't the right place to continue this. og:description - "A one to two sentence description of your object." twitter:description - "Description text will be truncated at the word to 200 characters." itemprop="description" - "A short description of the item."
meo2 11y ago
since no one has mentioned it, there's this http://matias.ca/laptoppro/mac/ http://matias.ca/laptoppro/mac/. IMO, it's the perfect solution for a portable mechanical keyboard. It's small, so you can throw in your bag and have it with you always, and the rechargeable batteries inside this thing are seriously impressive. I last recharged mine about 9 months ago and I use it all day every day.

54 points by rayshan 11y ago

> As someone with an affinity for both wireless devices and mechanical keyboards, I am saddened that wireless mechanical keyboards are few and far between. There are two reasons for this. First, mechanical keyboards are generally larger than other keyboards, which makes them less portable. Secondly, mechanical keyboards are oftentimes used by professional gamers, and for their use case, wireless just doesn't cut it. Higher latency (and more importantly - higher variance latency), as well as multi-key rollover[0] That said, as someone who owns two Das keyboards and hates typing on laptop keyboards (or, worse, on tablet screens), I'm very happy to see this! [0] Even the Das keyboards don't support n-key rollover over USB; you need to use PS/2 cables, IIRC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_%28key%29

archagon 11y ago
I think "professional" gamers tend to be needlessly fussy about their equipment. I beat Super Meat Boy 100% with a wireless gamepad with no issues at all. I also use a wireless gaming mouse to play Counter-Strike and other FPS. These are both Logitech products so they use their own receivers instead of Bluetooth (presumably for better performance), but it looks like this keyboard mod is doing the same thing.
- rcthompson 11y ago
  I know someone who looked into Logitech's wireless protocol. He said it was just Bluetooth with some magic numbers changed to separate it from real Bluetooth.
  - archagon 11y ago
    Maybe, but I do know that Logitech differentiates between their normal wireless peripherals and their gaming peripherals, especially in regards to products like the 500hz G602 mouse.
- nightski 11y ago
  For me it is batteries. Why deal with connection issues/batteries for a peripheral that never leaves the desk? Seems ridiculous.
  - archagon 11y ago
    My mouse lasts about a month, and I much prefer the experience to getting my movement occasionally (frequently) cramped by a rigid cable!
    - nacs 11y ago
      If its a frequent problem, you can use a mouse bungee [1] [2] [3] to prevent it. They're targeted at the gaming crowd and most "pro gamers" use those. I'm sure you could rig up a cheaper solution with sticky tape or something if you don't want to buy one. [1]: http://i.imgur.com/l8Ynobn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/l8Ynobn.jpg [2]: http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Bungee-Management-Fixer-Holder/dp/B00IE00HTW/ http://www.amazon.com/Mouse-Bungee-Management-Fixer-Holder/d... (~$9) [3]: http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-Galeru-EAC-MSB001/dp/B00BOVOED8/ http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Tt-eSPORTS-Galeru-EAC-MSB0... (~$20)
    - monochromatic 11y ago
      Yeah but a mouse moves in use. A keyboard just sits there. I don't understand the allure of wireless keyboards.
    - DrStalker 11y ago
      For me the big problem isn't battery life, it's cats deciding to knock the mouse onto the floor and hide it. A wired mouse makes this very easy to fix!
    - Moru 11y ago
      Trick from old dog: When using wired keyboard with wired mouse, use the cable-binder that came with either device to bind the two cables together leaving enough length of the mouse cable so it can move freely. This has the added advantage that your mouse cable won't break as fast because of movement.
- Dewie3 11y ago
  There is no need for scare quotes since professional gamers are a thing. Unless you meant serious or hardcore gamers, in which case I don't know why you didn't just write that. I don't think professionals are playing SMB. CS though, probably.
  - archagon 11y ago
    Sure, but real professional gamers are few and far between. It would be a stretch to claim that their fairly unique peripheral needs are the reason why wireless keyboards are scarce in general. No — I think it's exactly the scare-quote professional gamers who scoff at things like wireless keyboards and keep them from becoming popular. I didn't write serious or hardcore because I was responding to the language in the parent post. And I mentioned SMB because it's a game that really tests your reflexes.
    - darkerside 11y ago
      Fair point, and that's what you should have responded to the parent post with. Making an irrelevant remark about non-professional gamers came off as quite condescending.
      - archagon 11y ago
        Sorry, I guess I'm just annoyed at all the armchair professional gamers on /r/games talking about what's supposedly best for everyone and whatnot.
    - lawl 11y ago
      I don't think the problem is necessarily the latency. But with wireless keyboard/mouse I sometimes had the issue of a key not beeing registered, or a fast mouse movement. Sometimes just randomly or when the batteries were getting low. For regular use that's not too much of a problem, as it happens rarely, but even for somewhat serious gaming that's not acceptable, as it can cost you hours of progression, a lost match or whatever.
noeleon 11y ago
New Das Keyboards do support nKey Rollover via USB [1]. [1]: http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/ http://www.daskeyboard.com/daskeyboard-4-ultimate/
- MaulingMonkey 11y ago
  Older das keyboards supported 6-key rollover via USB (running into protocol limits) or 12-key rollover via PS/2, IIRC.
- darklajid 11y ago
  Interesting that this site states Just press shift + mute to toggle NKRO. I understand why you would want this enabled. I'm not sure I understand the negative implications, so - what are potential reasons to _disable_ that?
  - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
    That is curious. Relying on an extra driver? Acting like multiple keyboards on a USB hub to work around USB protocol limitations, possibly causing complications or weirdness? </wildlyguessing>
    - xorcist 11y ago
      Some BIOSes doesn't work with NKRO enabled. If yours does, you can safely enable it.
Dylan16807 11y ago
Latency is bad, but it's pretty trivial to build a short range ultra-low-bandwidth wireless connection that will never have a latency of 1ms or greater. And for a human inputting via a mechanical device into a desktop operating system, that's as good as zero. The default on a USB keyboard is polling every several milliseconds anyway.
- ksk 11y ago
  If it is so trivial, then why do all wireless keyboards not do this?
  - Dylan16807 11y ago
    Do they not? Probably because they're using simpler chips and they're conserving battery power instead of sending the message at 5x the necessary strength every tenth of a millisecond. Or because they're hooked up to USB, or using 5ms of debouncing anyway, so the extra bit of latency isn't enough for them to care.
  - Encosia 11y ago
    I can't remember using a wireless keyboard in the last decade that had any noticeable latency. Even a cheap HP Wireless Elite that I tried on a whim recently had no visible latency as I typed.
Nullabillity 11y ago
I'd like to know, on the other hand, what's the supposed benefit of wireless? On a laptop the cable length shouldn't be an issue anyway, and on a desktop you can, in the worst case, get an extension cable for a couple of bucks. And what do you get in exchange? Batteries that need to be swapped and slightly (though arguably neglegible) worse performance.
- kedean 11y ago
  Well, no cables, for one. It's not a huge complaint, but fewer cables on the desk is a beautiful thing. Also, easier transport.
walterbell 11y ago
Goldtouch (IBM/Lexmark heritage) makes a foldable bluetooth ergonomic mechanical keyboard, http://www.goldtouch.com/go2-goes-wireless/ http://www.goldtouch.com/go2-goes-wireless/ & http://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-Wireless-Bluetooth-Mobile-Keyboard/dp/B00GXPIFTE http://www.amazon.com/Goldtouch-Wireless-Bluetooth-Mobile-Ke...
- Splendor 11y ago
  Wow, that ball joint is pretty ingenious. Thanks for sharing.
- melling 11y ago
  That has a scissor switch like on most Mac keyboards. It doesn't have Cherry MX switches like those found on the Das Keyboards.
Encosia 11y ago
I've love to see some sort of blind visual latency test between a wired and quality wireless keyboard. I've been using wireless keyboards since around 2005, am fairly allergic to latency in any device, but couldn't imagine going back to the shackles of a wired keyboard or mouse now.

clebio 11y ago

I'm confused as why you wouldn't just use a USB breakout board and a bluetooth or serial modem (e.g. [1]). Having to desolder every key seems like an immense amount of work and risk of error. At any rate, an awesome hack. I love my Das Keyboard, and wireless wouldn't hurt (gaming isn't my use-case). [1]: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12700 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/12700

nacs 11y ago
Perhaps it would help with latency a bit? Key signal > USB > Wireless vs Key signal > Wireless

entee 11y ago

I too wish there were more out of the box solutions for these. I also wish more keyboards separated the keypad from the main keyboard. I like to stay centered in front of the monitor, which means necessarily the number pad makes the whole thing asymmetrical and knocks into the mouse (I have a very narrow desk). I'm surprised they're not more common, because many of my programmer friends also prefer mechanical keyboards. At that point latency seems irrelevant? It doesn't appear mechanical keyboards are intrinsically less suited to being wireless...

abroncs 11y ago
There are quite a few tenkeylenss or 60% boards that exist for this very reason.

sashk 11y ago

I have different problem - keyboard I love doesn't come as wired keyboard, only wireless. I want something to turn into wired one. Why? Because wireless microsoft keyboards aren't secure. And I'm talking about Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic keyboard...

PebblesHD 11y ago

An interesting project, and a nice result, but I'm curious about the goal of not having inscriptions on the keys? You may not look down at the keyboard when typing but what if someone else needs to use it or for whatever reason you cant focus? It seems like needless one-upping, even their website seems to acknowledge that its really only for showing off...

jen729w 11y ago
If nothing else, it means they can make one version without annoying half the population - in this case me, as a Mac user. It's simple enough to remap the Ctrl/Win/Alt cluster to their Mac equivalents. It's also forced me to be a better touch-typist; I'd never really bothered learning the numbers up until now. I didn't even realise it but I was looking down at them each time I needed them. No more! Aaaaand it does look cool.
- Encosia 11y ago
  To be fair, using PC keys might annoy ~10% of the population if you include Linux users, not half. They actually make an Apple version of the variant that does have printed keycaps. But yeah, the stated purpose of the blank keycaps is to force you to become a better typist (citation needed as to whether it actually works).
djtriptych 11y ago
I own an unlabeled Das and I did find it helped me type because it completely takes away the ability to cheat. I ended up having to learn how to type a lot of special symbols w/o cheating.
- PebblesHD 11y ago
  Fair enough, I hadn't really considered the learning aspect that you and @jen729w mention. Neat!
GuiA 11y ago
I have a keyboard without key inscriptions. I prioritize aesthetics over other people being able to use my keyboard (and using a non-conventional layout, most people would be confused by my keyboard anyway).

mrmondo 11y ago

If you really want to make your Das wireless - why not just use a wireless USB hub?

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

darklajid 11y ago

Off-topic, but something that surprised me: This site comes up blank/empty here. I assume it's ublock - haven't tested that. I did look at the source of the page and .. whoa. Can someone explain to me what meta og:description (more or less the whole text, I guess) meta itemprop="description" (as above, a full copy) meta twitter:descrption (a third one..) are? Is that normal? Sane? I've never seen that before. Plus, meta description is .. present but empty. The body starts roughly 600 lines into the document.

bdchauvette 11y ago
og:description is metadata for facebook's OpenGraph. [1] twitter:description one is metadata for Twitter Cards. [2] itemprop="description" is metadata in the microdata format [3] ---- [1] http://ogp.me/ http://ogp.me/ [2] https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview https://dev.twitter.com/cards/overview [3] https://schema.org/docs/gs.html https://schema.org/docs/gs.html
- darklajid 11y ago
  I know I'll pay for derailing this, but thanks a lot. My biggest confusion was that these overlap so much, and that they contain the full content. Again, apologies. I just got curious and was hoping the author might share why this is the case. Even after following your links I'm confused, but - I got the gentle nudge and understand that this isn't the right place to continue this. og:description - "A one to two sentence description of your object." twitter:description - "Description text will be truncated at the word to 200 characters." itemprop="description" - "A short description of the item."

meo2 11y ago

since no one has mentioned it, there's this http://matias.ca/laptoppro/mac/ http://matias.ca/laptoppro/mac/. IMO, it's the perfect solution for a portable mechanical keyboard. It's small, so you can throw in your bag and have it with you always, and the rechargeable batteries inside this thing are seriously impressive. I last recharged mine about 9 months ago and I use it all day every day.