6 ms·

Nobody is unemployable

56 points by mattantwest 11y ago

Futurebot 11y ago
'Nobody' here is highly contextual. From what I understand, there are some markets (outside the US, particularly in the developing world. E.g., http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-outs-india-every-year-fewer-getting-hired-trends/ http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-...) where there's a glut of talented people. They are 'unemployable' if they cannot move and cannot find remote work. In the larger sense, there are plenty of people who are unemployable (though it can be geographically or temporally limited in scope -- not always ,though): Zero Marginal Product workers: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/07/zero-marginal-product-workers.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/07/zer... To his point, though, the market in the US is still hot, and we're not /terribly/ far off from the first dot-com wave situation of "if you know HTML you can get hired in this market." Now it's more like "if you know Rails or one front-end JS framework decently, you can get hired." So if you have any skill, yeah, you're not going to unemployable here for a while, and whether or not you failed at your own company will probably not be relevant.
- EduardoBautista 11y ago
  >From what I understand, there are some markets (outside the US, particularly in the developing world. E.g., http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-... http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-...) where there's a glut of talented people. Just because you have an engineering degree does not mean you actually know anything you were supposed to learn.
  - seanp2k2 11y ago
    And learning all they taught in school well enough to pass the tests doesn't mean you can actually do a job in that field.
nfriedly 11y ago
Having gone back and forth between employment and entrepreneurship, I agree with the point that the author is making. Taking on a "regular job" doesn't mean you've failed, and previously running a business certainly wouldn't be a knock against someone I was considering hiring.
- fsk 11y ago
  Based on my experience interviewing (both as a candidate as as a non-boss watching my coworkers interview), it makes me want to start my own business so I can get some great people at a bargain price. When my employer was interviewing, the two strongest candidates failed their interview process, and they hired one of the weakest candidates. However, I don't fit the profile for VC, so the only way I can get to that point is by bootstrapping.
  - autokad 11y ago
    a lot of those interviews are perplexing. they ask people questions that took people with PHD's years to figure out and expect them to figure it out in minutes/hours. either they are repeating something from memory or they aren't going to figure it out, either way it doesn't tell you anything about how they are as an employee.
    - fsk 11y ago
      Most of these interview questions can be summarized as 1. Have you heard this question before? or 2. What number am I thinking of? I.e., any answer other than the one the interviewer is expecting is wrong. I had a recent interview with some SQL/Linux questions. I gave a correct answer, but one that wasn't on the interviewer's script. He wasn't able to accept my answer as correct. So I'm left trying to guess what answer the interviewer is expecting.
smil 11y ago
I would suggest a new term: Employ-unable. Many if not most firms are unable to identify intelligent, motivated people, outside of the typical CV pedigree of Ivy Leagues and corporate brands. As a result, they have created a cargo cult recruiting process that promises, in a few easy steps, to tell them the essence of the applicant's very being, and to accurately predict their future performance within the organization. A child knows that this is impossible, but the need for control and risk minimization means firms force themselves to believe in it. That is why the entire job seeking and interview process has degenerated into a tragedy and a farce. In Europe and North America, there are tens if not hundreds of millions of people unemployed because businesses are not able to employ them; they lack the competence to recruit well.
- Bahamut 11y ago
  I cannot upvote this enough. I spent 2 1/2 years unemployed after leaving a top graduate program in math - I didn't lack for motivation the whole time and I ended up teaching myself programming out of frustration over the process. I then was able to find a job after 3 months of searching after an arduous almost 2 1/2 years searching beforehand. All of the big companies passed up on me, as well as anyone else out there, despite going out of the way to apply to all sorts of jobs. After a few months of work, companies started contacting me. After my first job switch and some open source contributions, the floodgates started to open up - only then did companies start to recognize talent. The sad thing is, any one of them could have netted my loyalty and at a cheaper price overall if they were savvy at recruiting. I have little sympathy for companies that choose to operate that way.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    > I have little sympathy for companies that choose to operate that way. A known product is more valuable than an unknown one. And you did "switch" from your first job when your value was more realized, so it cuts both ways!
    - lostcolony 11y ago
      That's why contract-to-hire exists; to turn an unknown into a known. If a company is serious about getting the best, they'll know that their best shot of getting it is before -everyone else knows how good the person is too-. Unfortunately, most companies are too short sighted to do this (the startup hire fast fire fast mantra applies here too).
SixSigma 11y ago
And the corollary: the graveyard is full of indispensable people.
jeffreyrufino 11y ago
Great article Matt!
danieltillett 11y ago
I love how nobody has actually responded to the post. The idea that working for yourself makes you unable to be an employee is a serious one. I have alternated over the years between self-employment and working for others and at this point I doubt anyone would ever hire me again even if I wanted to be hired. Self-employment is not for everyone (it does come with a huge amount of stress), but if you can get used to this then it make working for someone else hard to accept.
- meric 11y ago
  I did that for a couple of years part time in university, and now I'm employed in a small company. Personally I enjoy both experiences, and am glad I'm not without either. That said, my current company does give me a lot of autonomy.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    The autonomy part becomes more attractive the longer you are self-employed. The other thing is there is no age discrimination.
Htsthbjig 11y ago
I have been self employed most of my life, I created companies from scratch and I deeply feel that I am unemployable. I am engineer, a geek, a hacker, whatever you want to call it when you love working with machines all day, but the most important thing is that I take my own decisions. I won't be happy working on machines for someone else. When you study in the University they train you to obey the decisions of others. Everyday I am shocked when people obey me without resistance. The best people I had did not obey me: When I ask something stupid, they just told me fast how stupid it is. They were a pain in the ass to work with, but the resulting work is outstanding. I think the belief that you need to work for someone else is wrong, society trains you for that as it is the only alternative. It is not. You can work on your own just fine and partner with other people. Working on your own is not for everyone, but also being employed is not for everyone.
FrankenPC 11y ago
For me, it was the exact opposite. I was self employed for about 15 years and decided to take early retirement as a full time employee. It's amazing. Vacation time. Full benefits. Profit sharing. Dedicated A/R and A/P accounting departments. Built in customer service department (HR). Marketing department. All taxes handled for me. All I have to do is code. Frankly it's a joke. Don't be afraid of going back if you decide or need to. In my mind, I'm still a consultant and always will be. My current customer is my employer and I only have one customer. The only thing that can get to me on occasion are all the petty gripes the other employees constantly bicker about. They don't know what it's like to do everything on your own.

56 points by mattantwest 11y ago

'Nobody' here is highly contextual. From what I understand, there are some markets (outside the US, particularly in the developing world. E.g., http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-outs-india-every-year-fewer-getting-hired-trends/ http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-...) where there's a glut of talented people. They are 'unemployable' if they cannot move and cannot find remote work. In the larger sense, there are plenty of people who are unemployable (though it can be geographically or temporally limited in scope -- not always ,though): Zero Marginal Product workers: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/07/zero-marginal-product-workers.html http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/07/zer... To his point, though, the market in the US is still hot, and we're not /terribly/ far off from the first dot-com wave situation of "if you know HTML you can get hired in this market." Now it's more like "if you know Rails or one front-end JS framework decently, you can get hired." So if you have any skill, yeah, you're not going to unemployable here for a while, and whether or not you failed at your own company will probably not be relevant.

EduardoBautista 11y ago
>From what I understand, there are some markets (outside the US, particularly in the developing world. E.g., http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-... http://dazeinfo.com/2014/10/28/1-5-million-engineering-pass-...) where there's a glut of talented people. Just because you have an engineering degree does not mean you actually know anything you were supposed to learn.
- seanp2k2 11y ago
  And learning all they taught in school well enough to pass the tests doesn't mean you can actually do a job in that field.

nfriedly 11y ago

Having gone back and forth between employment and entrepreneurship, I agree with the point that the author is making. Taking on a "regular job" doesn't mean you've failed, and previously running a business certainly wouldn't be a knock against someone I was considering hiring.

fsk 11y ago
Based on my experience interviewing (both as a candidate as as a non-boss watching my coworkers interview), it makes me want to start my own business so I can get some great people at a bargain price. When my employer was interviewing, the two strongest candidates failed their interview process, and they hired one of the weakest candidates. However, I don't fit the profile for VC, so the only way I can get to that point is by bootstrapping.
- autokad 11y ago
  a lot of those interviews are perplexing. they ask people questions that took people with PHD's years to figure out and expect them to figure it out in minutes/hours. either they are repeating something from memory or they aren't going to figure it out, either way it doesn't tell you anything about how they are as an employee.
  - fsk 11y ago
    Most of these interview questions can be summarized as 1. Have you heard this question before? or 2. What number am I thinking of? I.e., any answer other than the one the interviewer is expecting is wrong. I had a recent interview with some SQL/Linux questions. I gave a correct answer, but one that wasn't on the interviewer's script. He wasn't able to accept my answer as correct. So I'm left trying to guess what answer the interviewer is expecting.

smil 11y ago

I would suggest a new term: Employ-unable. Many if not most firms are unable to identify intelligent, motivated people, outside of the typical CV pedigree of Ivy Leagues and corporate brands. As a result, they have created a cargo cult recruiting process that promises, in a few easy steps, to tell them the essence of the applicant's very being, and to accurately predict their future performance within the organization. A child knows that this is impossible, but the need for control and risk minimization means firms force themselves to believe in it. That is why the entire job seeking and interview process has degenerated into a tragedy and a farce. In Europe and North America, there are tens if not hundreds of millions of people unemployed because businesses are not able to employ them; they lack the competence to recruit well.

Bahamut 11y ago
I cannot upvote this enough. I spent 2 1/2 years unemployed after leaving a top graduate program in math - I didn't lack for motivation the whole time and I ended up teaching myself programming out of frustration over the process. I then was able to find a job after 3 months of searching after an arduous almost 2 1/2 years searching beforehand. All of the big companies passed up on me, as well as anyone else out there, despite going out of the way to apply to all sorts of jobs. After a few months of work, companies started contacting me. After my first job switch and some open source contributions, the floodgates started to open up - only then did companies start to recognize talent. The sad thing is, any one of them could have netted my loyalty and at a cheaper price overall if they were savvy at recruiting. I have little sympathy for companies that choose to operate that way.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  > I have little sympathy for companies that choose to operate that way. A known product is more valuable than an unknown one. And you did "switch" from your first job when your value was more realized, so it cuts both ways!
  - lostcolony 11y ago
    That's why contract-to-hire exists; to turn an unknown into a known. If a company is serious about getting the best, they'll know that their best shot of getting it is before -everyone else knows how good the person is too-. Unfortunately, most companies are too short sighted to do this (the startup hire fast fire fast mantra applies here too).

SixSigma 11y ago

And the corollary: the graveyard is full of indispensable people.

jeffreyrufino 11y ago

Great article Matt!

danieltillett 11y ago

I love how nobody has actually responded to the post. The idea that working for yourself makes you unable to be an employee is a serious one. I have alternated over the years between self-employment and working for others and at this point I doubt anyone would ever hire me again even if I wanted to be hired. Self-employment is not for everyone (it does come with a huge amount of stress), but if you can get used to this then it make working for someone else hard to accept.

meric 11y ago
I did that for a couple of years part time in university, and now I'm employed in a small company. Personally I enjoy both experiences, and am glad I'm not without either. That said, my current company does give me a lot of autonomy.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  The autonomy part becomes more attractive the longer you are self-employed. The other thing is there is no age discrimination.

Htsthbjig 11y ago

I have been self employed most of my life, I created companies from scratch and I deeply feel that I am unemployable. I am engineer, a geek, a hacker, whatever you want to call it when you love working with machines all day, but the most important thing is that I take my own decisions. I won't be happy working on machines for someone else. When you study in the University they train you to obey the decisions of others. Everyday I am shocked when people obey me without resistance. The best people I had did not obey me: When I ask something stupid, they just told me fast how stupid it is. They were a pain in the ass to work with, but the resulting work is outstanding. I think the belief that you need to work for someone else is wrong, society trains you for that as it is the only alternative. It is not. You can work on your own just fine and partner with other people. Working on your own is not for everyone, but also being employed is not for everyone.

FrankenPC 11y ago

For me, it was the exact opposite. I was self employed for about 15 years and decided to take early retirement as a full time employee. It's amazing. Vacation time. Full benefits. Profit sharing. Dedicated A/R and A/P accounting departments. Built in customer service department (HR). Marketing department. All taxes handled for me. All I have to do is code. Frankly it's a joke. Don't be afraid of going back if you decide or need to. In my mind, I'm still a consultant and always will be. My current customer is my employer and I only have one customer. The only thing that can get to me on occasion are all the petty gripes the other employees constantly bicker about. They don't know what it's like to do everything on your own.