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The idea of a mostly free online CS education seems quite popular on HN. However, I remain skeptical re: employ-ability. Has anyone done any kind of study or su

The idea of a mostly free online CS education seems quite popular on HN. However, I remain skeptical re: employ-ability. Has anyone done any kind of study or survey to see whether these types of rundowns improve a self-taught programmer's change of gainful employment? How does self-taught compare to degree-holding, and how do they both compare to this kind of pseudo-degree? How does one list "cobbled-together CS education" on a resume? If I sound grumpy it's just because it's before noon, I'm genuinely curious as to whether this kind of pursuit is a viable alternative to the degree I'm slogging through.

jnem 11y ago
I have similar concerns. From my experience working in the biz, many companies job opportunity are hidden behind a thick wall of HR and corporate recruiters. I was interviewed by one just a few weeks ago, and I was left feeling pretty dirty afterwards. The person who interviewed me had no way to verify my claims, knowledge, or understanding of the industry. I have a degree or two, but none in CS, though Ive been self taught since age 11. It is unlikely I will receive a follow up call for the job as the individual in question has no way to qualify my experience.
- wlesieutre 11y ago
  I expect that it makes networking and work experience a lot more important. A friend of mine who taught himself programming tells me that his interviews tend to start with either "A literature degree?" or "It looks like you're a self-taught programmer." So you at least get a predictable icebreaker out of it. The part that it makes tough is getting that interview. If it's a company that bothers to click your resume's Github link and see some work samples, you're probably OK. If it's a big company with a crappy HR filter on incoming applicants, you might have to find another way to get a foot in the door. I know Google has a pretty good chunk of people without CS degrees. I'm curious if any self-taught people manage to get in there as a first job in the industry, like grads hired fresh out of college.
  - jnem 11y ago
    Agreed, networking is important, and Ive done a bit of that, which is how I got my foot in for the initial interview. Once there though, it was scary how little the interviewer knew about the position they were supposed to be recruiting for. They did have me sign a right to represent form for the job (which was a 9 month contract position at a company that starts with an I and ends with L) but i never did receive any follow up from them. My concern is in situations like the above, the ONLY way such a recruiter can qualify you is based on value of your degree parameter. Which means if the company you are applying for goes the traditional big-bizz HR approach, go get a degree in CS from a Brand-name institution. Otherwise, focus your efforts on getting interviews with whomever your direct supervisor will be. That however, is easier said than done.
pitt1980 11y ago
the degree you're 'slogging' through is almost certainly a safer route to your destination I'm pretty sure its a mistake to think the free online CS education won't require alot of 'slogging' to have any value the benefit you have is that you have real life humans, who hold office hours, and will answer question in real time, when your slog gets tough ultimately though, you'll be judged on what you know, not where you learned it
- dikaiosune 11y ago
  For me at least, the "slog" is not the work (I absolutely love writing code and learning CS), it's the organizational side: showing up to scheduled events (group meetings, I take online classes), completing designated assignments with little to no room for creativity, etc. That's a bit different than assuming a Coursera/edX path is a free ride. You just get a lot more autonomy.
dsacco 11y ago
That's not how it works. You take a comprehensive background in CS to learn CS, not for direct employment. The benefit is in being as strong an engineer as someone who went to school (theoretically). In practice, all of the people I know who are successful engineers without a degree simply don't have an "Education" section on their résumé. They will make up for it in the other sections. As for your last question - yes, it's completely viable. There are many people who make substantial salaries (much higher than the median engineer) without degrees. Just learn how to network and sell your skills. It isn't even all that difficult. All those job ads that say, "You need to have a Bachelor's, preferably Master's" don't actually require those (with a few clear exceptions). In fact, you will become much more successful in your career if you learn to network with hiring managers and learn to pick out and ignore the more irrelevant requirements on a job ad. Now, I'm not suggesting you drop out. I'm just saying it's completely viable.
- dikaiosune 11y ago
  Sure -- I'm not disputing that the primary reason for a strong CS background is to be a better engineer (which would of course translate in less tangible ways to employability, like having more impressive projects and promotions). I just already assume that these online mostly free options are equivalent to if not better than your typical 4-year CS degree in terms of gaining a background in CS. In my mind, the reason to pay for the 4-year degree as opposed to a program like this is employment. The (non-HN) mantra usually goes, "having that piece of paper opens doors." So, I think it is relevant to ask these questions regarding employment, as that is usually a big part of the justification for spending money. Further, it is often not accurate to attempt to draw a distinction between the two on the basis of educational quality.
- bryondowd 11y ago
  Just one example of one of these exceptions is government work. The government requires it's computer scientists to have a degree, and has a rigid pay scale that uses highest degree earned as a factor, along with years of experience, and leaves little wiggle room for any actual demand for your skills. I self taught for the most part, but had to get that piece of paper anyway, because I have ties to the area I live in and the only reliable employment here is the FAA. Moving or commuting to the nearest big cities just wasn't for me. I'll probably also have to go back and get an MS at some point to be able to progress up the pay scale.
leeny 11y ago
I'm an engineer who spent a few years doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for, if your school is top-tier, having that brand on your resume is going to open doors. If it's not, then you might as well go self-taught and save some money because at least then you'll look a bit unique and like someone with grit/initiative. Resumes from n-tier schools very rarely make it past the gatekeepers, unless you have some really salient projects or come in as a referral. This is all rather silly, of course. I wrote at length about it here: http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-a-meritocracy/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-a-m...
- dikaiosune 11y ago
  Interesting read. It is, indeed, rather silly. re: "doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for..." What about the other 90% (or whatever it actually is) of software jobs out there? People like me, who have dropped out of college multiple times, come from families without money or connections, and don't want to live in the Bay Area or SV, will be applying to a whole different class of company and will probably face a much different hiring environment. Personally, that's what I'm more curious about in the context of educational certification.
- Test-Grave 11y ago
  Just out of interest, what is usually considered "top-tier"? Where is the cutoff after the obvious choices? Georgia Tech? UT Austin? University of Florida? etc. etc.
  - Spoom 11y ago
    My impression is, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Waterloo, full stop.
    - fapjacks 11y ago
      For CS? Add Carnagie Mellon and Caltech. THEN full stop.
ebiester 11y ago
There are a lot of people getting hired after these 3 month crash courses who are actually self-motivated to keep learning. Others moved up from the help desk when they were able to solve a problem that impressed someone in IT. They have the natural skill and the first (or second, or third) job but have major gaps in their skillset. Then, there are people who get CS degrees but didn't get everything they really needed. They have the job, but are running up against boundaries of their knowledge. Then, there are some precocious 12 year olds who just don't have access to the information yet. They may eventually get into college CS but need a little help in the presentation of the information. I wish I would have had this at 12! The Pascal compiler wasn't enough for me past the fooling around and small problems I fixed. I didn't have the resources to ask people when I got stuck, so I gave up until I made it to college. It isn't just about zero to google.

jnem 11y ago

I have similar concerns. From my experience working in the biz, many companies job opportunity are hidden behind a thick wall of HR and corporate recruiters. I was interviewed by one just a few weeks ago, and I was left feeling pretty dirty afterwards. The person who interviewed me had no way to verify my claims, knowledge, or understanding of the industry. I have a degree or two, but none in CS, though Ive been self taught since age 11. It is unlikely I will receive a follow up call for the job as the individual in question has no way to qualify my experience.

wlesieutre 11y ago
I expect that it makes networking and work experience a lot more important. A friend of mine who taught himself programming tells me that his interviews tend to start with either "A literature degree?" or "It looks like you're a self-taught programmer." So you at least get a predictable icebreaker out of it. The part that it makes tough is getting that interview. If it's a company that bothers to click your resume's Github link and see some work samples, you're probably OK. If it's a big company with a crappy HR filter on incoming applicants, you might have to find another way to get a foot in the door. I know Google has a pretty good chunk of people without CS degrees. I'm curious if any self-taught people manage to get in there as a first job in the industry, like grads hired fresh out of college.
- jnem 11y ago
  Agreed, networking is important, and Ive done a bit of that, which is how I got my foot in for the initial interview. Once there though, it was scary how little the interviewer knew about the position they were supposed to be recruiting for. They did have me sign a right to represent form for the job (which was a 9 month contract position at a company that starts with an I and ends with L) but i never did receive any follow up from them. My concern is in situations like the above, the ONLY way such a recruiter can qualify you is based on value of your degree parameter. Which means if the company you are applying for goes the traditional big-bizz HR approach, go get a degree in CS from a Brand-name institution. Otherwise, focus your efforts on getting interviews with whomever your direct supervisor will be. That however, is easier said than done.

pitt1980 11y ago

the degree you're 'slogging' through is almost certainly a safer route to your destination I'm pretty sure its a mistake to think the free online CS education won't require alot of 'slogging' to have any value the benefit you have is that you have real life humans, who hold office hours, and will answer question in real time, when your slog gets tough ultimately though, you'll be judged on what you know, not where you learned it

dikaiosune 11y ago
For me at least, the "slog" is not the work (I absolutely love writing code and learning CS), it's the organizational side: showing up to scheduled events (group meetings, I take online classes), completing designated assignments with little to no room for creativity, etc. That's a bit different than assuming a Coursera/edX path is a free ride. You just get a lot more autonomy.

dsacco 11y ago

That's not how it works. You take a comprehensive background in CS to learn CS, not for direct employment. The benefit is in being as strong an engineer as someone who went to school (theoretically). In practice, all of the people I know who are successful engineers without a degree simply don't have an "Education" section on their résumé. They will make up for it in the other sections. As for your last question - yes, it's completely viable. There are many people who make substantial salaries (much higher than the median engineer) without degrees. Just learn how to network and sell your skills. It isn't even all that difficult. All those job ads that say, "You need to have a Bachelor's, preferably Master's" don't actually require those (with a few clear exceptions). In fact, you will become much more successful in your career if you learn to network with hiring managers and learn to pick out and ignore the more irrelevant requirements on a job ad. Now, I'm not suggesting you drop out. I'm just saying it's completely viable.

dikaiosune 11y ago
Sure -- I'm not disputing that the primary reason for a strong CS background is to be a better engineer (which would of course translate in less tangible ways to employability, like having more impressive projects and promotions). I just already assume that these online mostly free options are equivalent to if not better than your typical 4-year CS degree in terms of gaining a background in CS. In my mind, the reason to pay for the 4-year degree as opposed to a program like this is employment. The (non-HN) mantra usually goes, "having that piece of paper opens doors." So, I think it is relevant to ask these questions regarding employment, as that is usually a big part of the justification for spending money. Further, it is often not accurate to attempt to draw a distinction between the two on the basis of educational quality.
bryondowd 11y ago
Just one example of one of these exceptions is government work. The government requires it's computer scientists to have a degree, and has a rigid pay scale that uses highest degree earned as a factor, along with years of experience, and leaves little wiggle room for any actual demand for your skills. I self taught for the most part, but had to get that piece of paper anyway, because I have ties to the area I live in and the only reliable employment here is the FAA. Moving or commuting to the nearest big cities just wasn't for me. I'll probably also have to go back and get an MS at some point to be able to progress up the pay scale.

leeny 11y ago

I'm an engineer who spent a few years doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for, if your school is top-tier, having that brand on your resume is going to open doors. If it's not, then you might as well go self-taught and save some money because at least then you'll look a bit unique and like someone with grit/initiative. Resumes from n-tier schools very rarely make it past the gatekeepers, unless you have some really salient projects or come in as a referral. This is all rather silly, of course. I wrote at length about it here: http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-a-meritocracy/ http://blog.alinelerner.com/silicon-valley-hiring-is-not-a-m...

dikaiosune 11y ago
Interesting read. It is, indeed, rather silly. re: "doing recruiting for top Bay Area startups. For the kinds of companies, I recruited for..." What about the other 90% (or whatever it actually is) of software jobs out there? People like me, who have dropped out of college multiple times, come from families without money or connections, and don't want to live in the Bay Area or SV, will be applying to a whole different class of company and will probably face a much different hiring environment. Personally, that's what I'm more curious about in the context of educational certification.
Test-Grave 11y ago
Just out of interest, what is usually considered "top-tier"? Where is the cutoff after the obvious choices? Georgia Tech? UT Austin? University of Florida? etc. etc.
- Spoom 11y ago
  My impression is, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Stanford, Waterloo, full stop.
  - fapjacks 11y ago
    For CS? Add Carnagie Mellon and Caltech. THEN full stop.

ebiester 11y ago

There are a lot of people getting hired after these 3 month crash courses who are actually self-motivated to keep learning. Others moved up from the help desk when they were able to solve a problem that impressed someone in IT. They have the natural skill and the first (or second, or third) job but have major gaps in their skillset. Then, there are people who get CS degrees but didn't get everything they really needed. They have the job, but are running up against boundaries of their knowledge. Then, there are some precocious 12 year olds who just don't have access to the information yet. They may eventually get into college CS but need a little help in the presentation of the information. I wish I would have had this at 12! The Pascal compiler wasn't enough for me past the fooling around and small problems I fixed. I didn't have the resources to ask people when I got stuck, so I gave up until I made it to college. It isn't just about zero to google.